121. The Death of Consensus Reality and Is Modern Marriage Advice Bullsh*t? - Transcripts

March 10, 2023

  • Favorite
  • Share

Welcome to the Alfalfa podcast πŸŒΎ

πŸ‘‰ Our website with all links

🏷 Check out Dry Farm Wines: https://bit.ly/dfwalfalfa  (Use our link for an extra bottle for one penny!)  

🏷 Check out Eight Sleep: https://bit.ly/eightsleepalfalfa (πŸ‘‰ Use code ALFALFA at checkout for a special discount.)  

Follow the podcast:

  • Our website with all links
  • Our Discord community
  • Transcripts of all episodes
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Instagram
  • TikTok

Follow the hosts:

  • Arman Assadi
  • Eric Johanson
  • Nick Urbani
  • Stephen Cesaro

Music by: Allie Gross x KOCH

πŸ‘‰ alfalfapod.com

Disclaimer: This is not Financial Advice. All opinions expressed by the podcast are intended for informational or entertainment purposes only and should not be treated as investment or financial advice of any kind. Alfalfa and its representatives are not liable to the listener/viewer or any other party, for the listener/viewer’s use of, or reliance on, any information received, directly or indirectly, from this media. The listener/viewer should always do their own research. Any views or opinions represented on this show are personal and belong solely to the show.

--- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/alfalfa/message


Canja mimo, Ste specification?

Wait, didn't they ban it? Wait, didn't they ban it?

No, that's gone. Band member? No, that's gone. It's gone, yeah. Wait. And voices that you...

Yeah, it's very, she's very cancelled. Wait, so what's on the front... Which one is on the front?

Yeah, it's very cancelled, yeah.

Wait, so what's on the front? What did she do wrong? She was like the Land O'Lakes Indian girl. She had a slave vibe, dude. Trove, yeah. What!?

What did she do? Oh, girls. She had a slave vibe, dude.

What? Okay, so I saw some old commercials of it,

and it was definitely racist.

Yeah, yeah, all right. Wait, Aunt Jemima is racist?

If you see the old, yeah, if you see the old, I know you wanna be like, oh my God, cancel the order, but if you look at it, I haven't seen it.

The cancelers, okay, so the cancelers of Aunt Jemima were calling it slave in a box, is what they call it. Slave in a box?

Yeah. It came in a bottle, first of all.

All right. I don't know, I just remember, like, you know. I can't believe you didn't know about this. This is about it, right? No, no, I mean, there's just so many good hip hop songs that refer to Aunt Jemima, they're a little sad. Or like, you know, she got curves, like Mrs. Butterworth. Like, I just, I like the little syrup ladies. You're so Sacramento. I'm just sad, yeah, I'm just sad. Like, all the little old syrup ladies are gone. Oh man, anyway, I don't know what's going on anymore. So, we're back from East Denver.

We had an amazing time. We'll get to that in a minute. Before we do, just mentioning what's happening in this episode today, welcome, hi, we're here. We're on the YouTubes, we're on the Spotify's, we're on the Apple Podcast, we're on every app. If we're not on your app, let us know.

So, today we're gonna be talking about.

I can't believe this is a bottle, right?

No, no, I mean, there's no, no.

It's a little sad.

I'm just sad, yeah, I'm just sad, man, anyway.

I don't know what's going on. We're gonna be talking about consensus reality. The idea that. The death of it. The death of it. The death of it. The death of it, and there's some important sort of anecdotal topics that we'll dig into that I think are pretty fascinating. In particular, some stuff about January 6th that has come out lately, and Russell Brand's been making the rounds. I'm a big fan, we'll talk about him a little bit. And then we'll wrap it up with some ideas around masculinity. Should you live with your partner before you get married? And the Jordan Peterson video that we recently came across that we all want to break down and dive into.

So, yeah, Ethan Denver was amazing, guys. We got to meet the community.

It was a blast, it was a blast. It's so much fun. Everyone's so rad. By the way, we kind of lived up to the whole, a lot of you listeners came to us through the Bankless episode where we're like, okay, you go to Bankless for class, then you come to us to go hang out at the bar and just chat about what you think about it. We might've missed a few days at the event. We did not go to class. You're bad, did you? We were at the event, we just so owner get in.

Nobody got their badge, you guys did not school, to get to class.

Your badge. We're at the event, we just- Nobody got the badge? I'm so proud that I never got my badge.

It's so proud that I never even. It's so proud that I never even applied for a badge. It's just consistent, that's even better.

You want to have a badge? It's just consistent.

That's even better. You want to have a badge? You guys are literally smoking weed on their bleachers.

Absolutely, absolutely. You're the bad kids. I just found a way to always have the hall pass or just made my own and walked around, walked around during like period, like it was amazing, yeah. So no, we had a great time. I mean, the fact that we had an event at all, I thought it was really interesting. Like the night before, first night of East Denver, we went to the Bankless event, which was great. David gave a little heartwarming speech. I thought that was lovely. And we were there, we got to meet some of the alfalfa peeps. And the fact that that was actually Bankless's first ever meetup as well. Was it? After all these years.

Wow. It's really cool. And then here we have ours the next day.

Yeah, absolutely. Just walked around.

Walked around.

Yeah. Was it?

Yeah, it's crazy that ours was bigger. I wasn't far behind considering the discrepancy of audience sizes, like pretty cool. But I just think we have an incredible community of people. There are so many people we have not met that are in the community that weren't at East Denver that we'll see at future events or just hang out within Discord. But it was really special. I have to say, I dropped into conversations that were like best friends for life that I'd never met before. I mean, that's really the vibe I had.

It was really fun considering the discrepancy of audience. I think we, oh man. Yeah, I mean, meeting everyone from the community that has been listening to the podcast or just in the Discord or both, that was a huge highlight. Like putting faces to the Discord names and trying to match the actual names to the Discord names was fun. But I think we had a sense that it wouldn't be like meeting strangers on the internet because we kind of all think about the same topics. We like to talk about the same topics. And I was just blown away by like, everyone's like their backgrounds, their experiences, the skill sets they have, the fun personalities they have, like all around from everyone. And so if you're in the Discord, know that we have confirmed everyone is as cool as they are in the Discord in real life.

Maybe even cooler.

We went out to the bars and then we all got along. So we went to dinner altogether afterwards. And then we all met up at the bars again the following day. Right. No, it was two days. Oh, whatever. Two days later. Can I share a funny story? Yeah, yeah. Let's hear something. Okay, so I was going to share this in our Discord, but I thought it'd be better for on air. When we all show up at 8 30 a.m.

to record our live episode, right? We actually get on premises. You guys, you don't have your badges. Nobody has badges. So you guys almost all got kicked out. Well, first we had to wolf our way past the security. You guys don't have badges. So we're almost not let in to even record our episode. But when we first walk in there, we get recognized. We get recognized by a random. Amy, Amy, Amy, Amy from the boys club booth recognizes us. She comes up and says, hello, introduces herself.

And we all are saying hi. And she, hi, Amy. And she sees Steven and she goes, oh, the disagreeable one.


Those two days.

Can I share a funny story from it? Yeah, yeah, let's have something.

OK, so yeah, you go frightening Amy aimingEntrey. It made my morning.

He was so good. Oh, it made my morning. Yeah. And I'm Stephen.

She's like, oh, the disagreeable. Yeah, that nickname is actually perfect.

Yeah, it's perfect.

Yeah, I think yeah, it's perfect.

By the way, Amy, reach out. By the way, Amy, reach out. We forgot to exchange informations. We took a selfie together and we forgot we didn't have a way to send it to you.

We have your photo.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, hit us up, Amy.

But yeah, that was awesome. What's our first time being recognized? Yes.

Absolutely. People don't know that maybe someone could dig it up. Mr. MTV.

Mr. MTV, Eric. Mr. MTV.

Mr. MTV, Eric.

On SDSU Canvas, I was recognized after my episodes. OK, we'll dig that up. It might be cool. DB star.

Ooh, yeah. It might be cool.

DB star. Ooh, yeah. Cool. It was very good. I'm really happy we did that. Let's dive into a little alfalfa, and then we'll get to shattering reality.

So go ahead, Nick. All right, well, I got a stat for my alfalfa round. I saw this on Twitter. US has 2 billion parking spaces consuming 700 billion square feet. US has 140 million homes making up only 275 billion square feet. So we actually give more space to parking lots than we do homes. And so I thought about this a long time ago when it came to shared driving, and I thought that might shift a little bit. But obviously, I think electric vehicles, if Tesla has its own network of autonomous cars, will that actually bring down car ownership? And will we repurpose cities in a new way? But also, I think in a previous episode, we talked about aliens come to our planet and be like, what the fuck is this? It's a little parking lots. And they're like, why is this a little parking lots in this country?

That's weird. But anyway, I thought that was pretty fascinating in that self-driving cars might actually massively reduce the need for so much parking. Who knows what we could do with it?

Shit is this. It's all parking lots.

Why is this little parking lots in this country?

That's weird. Who knows what we could do with it? Shareable mass driving. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sounds like a scam by Elon, to be honest.

Yeah, for sure. Actually, you remind me of Elon. Actually, I read an econ paper once a long time ago that was just postulating that there's a distortion in the parking market because the actual cost of parking in cities is artificially way too low. And I guess it's done the name of accessibility for people or whatever, but it causes distortions in how real estate is used, the amount of traffic and that. And if you go to New York, some of the parking growth, it's $800 a month to put your car in some lifts where they stack it on another car and it takes you all this time to get it. You can verify this. I was one of those people. But you can park for $1 an hour on the street. And because parking is artificially cheap, it encourages way more traffic and parking in the city because of that.

And then it also like, actually, you remind me of that.

I can verify this.

I was one of those people.

I was one of those people. I don't know. So I don't know where it's going with this, but the government has distorted the market for parking and traffic, and it's causing weird stuff to happen that otherwise would not


Can I give a quick alpha around 1B? Oh, I always get a 1B. All right, I didn't tell you. 2A.

All right, I get a 1B. Yes, all right, I didn't tell you. 2A. All right, I get a 1B. It's more of a 2A, actually. But how to pitch your favorite influencer at Eat Denver. We have some friends who are pretty popular in the crypto community crowd, and they lamented to us privately, like, they literally, hi, nice to meet you, and pitch on the business. Do you want to invest? Can we get on your podcast? Can we do this? Don't do that! Like, it sounds crazy that you have to give that feedback.

And on one end, you say, OK, well, I got to pitch. On the other end, people say, ask for feedback. But don't ask for general feedback, like, hey, I'd love to pick your brain, that's the worst. Or, can you give me feedback on my business?

No, ask one specific question about the business.

Like, it sounds crazy that you've

had the brain, that's the worst. Or, can you give me feedback on my business?

Yeah, what do you think of this mission statement? Yeah, or do you know a competitor that's different from us? This is what we're doing. Is there anyone that you know that's doing this? Or ask a very specific question? Because that person is probably an expert and probably is happy to talk about Talk Shop. I get it. I love Talking Shop about businesses. But the general, will you give me feedback? Can I pick your brain? Or a hard pitch? Those bookends don't work.

But somewhere in the middle, very specific question. Let them show their expertise.

I'm glad you brought that up. I'm glad you brought that up because that was Ledger's Alpha Alpha. And he was muted for 21 minutes. You stole it.

Yeah, you stole his Alpha, but he said it so well. And we had a little conversation about it. And I don't think any of it is there. But that's essentially what he said. He said, go up to people you know, like that you know online and be really fun and amiable and cordial and just give them a hug and have a good time, But also just don't fucking pitch me bro. Cuz I think that was his first

His first But it was his first conference and he's like a prominent figure in the space and he was sort of like

Will you give me money like hey man Just so you know like I'm trying to raise money from my company like that's that's a different field and like Will you invest in my company? Just say that's what I'm doing And yeah, we're currently raising right now, like it's obvious that like you would accept someone's money in in stating that you're you're raising money

Hey, or am I will you invest in my yes short-term scarcity minded thinking like remember that if you build a relationship with that person it's more valuable ten times over and Exponentially if you just think a little bit more long-term about it and you don't think about what's in it for me You think about how you can provide value to them and read how to win friends and influence people

Like just do it. Okay, just okay so my alfalfa round is based on one of our community members discord member Zach who came and met up at off at the alfalfa meetup and He is the chief communications officer. I think at whom zoo whom zoo vitamins and he brought some samples for us I took home some samples. I've been taking like he I brought home like a A smattering of them, but like I've been taking this one. I took today called the cognitive one And morning. No Contigen Conogen. Yeah, it's like it's supposed to be like I take that every day now supposed to be for cognition Yeah, and I felt like sustained Mental acuity today and he even told me he's like don't take it with coffee. I've like had many coffees But I I do feel very good about this this vitamin and You know, I'm so glad to meet him and that was really good He also gave me a testosterone one that Mina is hidden from me because because I'm going to Vegas tomorrow morning

I know she does not want me to be horny in Vegas without her. I know morning. No morning. No

Yeah, it's like like I take that every day now supposed to be for ya. Yeah, thanks act for ya

He thought it was just you're such a fucking bull already. She just doesn't want you to go to the next level

I just doesn't want you to go to the next level like a limp flower a limp flower eight day old

Oh my god, no, I will concur as well. I've been taking the the supplements in their high quality their high quality I can't wait to get on a test. The Amazon reviews seem pretty legit. Yeah

Not an ad

Five boxes of vitamins

Second of all, we're Instagram friends now Zach is jacked up. He's fucking I hope so Yeah, that's what's Instagram. Yeah. Yeah, I I did download it back. Wow

Zach is I hope so. Yeah

Oh, no Are you having a student? I forgot you don't so I'll go I've had this thought maybe it's a little sobering kind of a departure from all this testosterone Okay, no just I was on the The USS Midway this weekend. Oh, yeah first time. It's parked in San Diego and Retired aircraft carrier. Yeah, it's beautiful. And she's an old lady, but she's she's

She's a great little tourist attraction in San Diego that I was not aware of it. Are you having anything Steven?

I forgot you don't so I'll go

Last weekend. Oh, yeah

I I've been very like sober in general I used to do like little bits of edibles here and there or like smoke some weed, but I just been on nothing and I I just decided to take like a little bite of an edible before I went on this little day day trip and What what what cannabis in general does for me? Is it it turns me into even more of like a I just become very philosophical and big-minded about things and I found myself just like

Strolling through this aircraft carrier and if you haven't been on one, I don't know if you guys dare on this huge City in that and the Midway is small. It's a small I've been on the USS Roosevelt, which is Okay

Small okay. This is bigger what no I've been on the Midway and I remember like you can place a football field like on both deck there's a lower deck Where you can have a football field to play a basketball game on there?

Bigger one both you play a basketball game on there

Yeah Yeah, they're really huge and and you know, there's a post office. There's a laundromat There's a wood shop. There's I mean, it's a city. It's a city. Oh, man I remember walking past like the the postal office and they had real letters I sat and read like five of these long handwritten letters on the wall the whole thing was an experience, you know cannabis forces you to slow down get present and What I started thinking about and I don't know if this is alfalfa, but it's just more of a share It's like I just went back in time to the beginning of civilization But even predating civilization I was like we were these nomadic tribes that have always been at war like war-faring Nomadic tribes, this is a part of who we've always been and there's so much more that brings us together Than divides us and yet we find ourselves because of geographic geopolitical religious racial ethnic ethnic differences always getting into these fights and that's been a constant throughout humanity and That has evolved up until the point where we had modern-day warfare Where we've had incredible civil wars Revolutionary Wars World Wars and then we've had things like blitzkrieg and we've had nuclear war as well And now we're sitting in this place and of course being on this aircraft carrier made me think about the lives of these people The people that were giving their lives to their country to defend their nation but of course Knowing that they might die and it was just it was a lot and I realized something about myself. I realized that I'm actually How do I put this actually I wrote I wrote I wrote down a good like phrase for it that I'm anti-war pro-military I Respect the people like I didn't used to I used to be a lefty Who thought that anyone in the military and the whole idea of the military is just stupid con piece of shit people I mean, I'm gonna be really honest. That's the way people think on that side of the aisle It's just like this is stupid anyone who serves is stupid. This doesn't make any sense the whole thing is an abomination like it is a really crazy minute like like like cynical and Pathological way of thinking when you live in a place like San Francisco Okay, like there is no such thing as support the troops right in San Francisco, right? You're right, but now having departed from that absolutely insane sort of thinking. I'm like man. I've come a long way it's been many years since then but I deeply respect a human being who serves a nation because they're Yes, are they upon at times and are they being used to? They literally are being used in this game of like now we have these like children that have become adults who lead nations who are fighting and bickering over little pieces of land and arbitrary lines in the sand and then they send their their citizens to go fight and die and and and so then you have no choice but to protect your homeland your wife your children you have sons and fathers and Spouses going and dying and the whole thing just hit me.

I was just it was it was too much It was so much. I was just like fuck man. Like you can be in Support of troops you can be pro-military you can be a nationalist and yet be a globalist and say why? Why is there war? Why are we still killing each other? We're one species. We're humanity and yet here today in 2023 if an alien species Civilization was looking at this planet. You would look at this and say this civilization is still mutilating one another why why are they doing this and in that way I feel that we're very unevolved and And yet we're forced to because if we didn't defend our borders if America was not what it is Which is very aggressive in its nature and it has to be and it spends so much money on the military if it didn't Then what would it be? It would be susceptible to to getting annihilated and so It was just it was a lot for me and I guess I kind of just tapped back into it a little bit It was it was important to me to know that there's a polarity that exists there that it's okay

I can be both of those things right here I agree and I actually think that um You know when we went to Israel and we saw the people who like we're forced to serve in the military You know you get a better appreciation for it, and and I'm with you Like I appreciate like I don't want to be one of those guys that that is like devoting my life to the nation, but I sure as fuck appreciate the people that are doing that and I know what their sacrifice I know what they're giving and And it's fucking big.

Yeah, yeah and most of them didn't have a choice and we're lucky that..

And and to be fair, like your point was like they're pawns in a game like aren't we all like we're going to talk about that now? Like you're going to talk about that in this episode, like maybe we all are.

We're going to talk about that now. We're going to talk- Also, some of the best employees or team members I've had in different companies have always been military.

Previous military, for sure. Well, I was talking to my barber about it today because I was like telling him about my experience and he was like, dude, my aircraft carrier was like four times the size of that thing. That thing's a little baby. That's fucking huge. I know.

I know. God.

Anyway, anyway. Just like, uh, I was watching the, uh, whatever podcast last night and everything you just, uh, it's great. Kind of interesting pod, by the way, if you haven't seen it, they do a lot of like dating stuff, but like, like last night they had this, had this kind of like well-known conservative guy. And then just like an only fans girl stripper, a couple of college girls. And they were just talking about stuff. And it just made me sad. Um, because what you, what you said reminded me of like, how much people sort of take for granted everything that like kind of underlies the world that they live in. We're so people talk about it with regards to our food, right? Like we're so disconnected from where the food comes that we have no appreciates before the idea that we just go to the grocery store and pick up a steak and then cook it or like door dash something is just insane. And when you get disconnected from it, then problems start to happen. Right. And that's kind of how we are with regards to our freedom.

Freedom. Uh, yeah, I mean, risk of, yeah. Risk of sounding a little corny. Our democracy, but yeah, it's true. We take a lot of stuff for granted now. And like, it's, it's hard to imagine.

Uh, yeah. I mean, our democracy are marketing.

But our generation, or even the, especially the generation, like after ours, like kind of coming together, like the silent generation did during the war, it's just, it's almost like for like one, they had like one vision of like, what the world is. What is good. What is right? What is more. And they just kind of coalesce around that and did like really great stuff. And yeah, it like worries me that I don't know

what could actually like bond us together right now. Oh, an alien invasion.

Well, yeah, it really might be. Yeah, it really might be. Independence Day. And post fourth turning though? Will Smith?

Well, and here we are in like- Men in St. And post doesanaly- Will Smith. Well, and here we are like looking at a lot of things that happened lately. So like Russell Brand is someone that I've been throwing in the text thread lately. I'm personally a big fan. I love Russell. He's a radically moderate dude. I've been following him for many, many years, in particular on YouTube. Probably more of a lefty, let's be honest. He's always been more of a lefty, for sure. He's very open-minded. When I said lunatic lefty, I mean lunatic lefty.

I don't mean you're generally on the left. Generally on left, I think I'm generally on the left. But we're talking about the, yeah, you're just off your rocker. Now, Russell has always been a very socially liberal person and a very left-leaning person. But he's been on a truth-seeking adventure and he's been publicly displaying this and documenting this on his YouTube channel. And of course, for those of you that don't know him, he's a famous actor, comedian. Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Yeah, he was fantastic. I feel like he just played himself in that movie. Pretty much just played himself. Felt that way. Yeah, yeah, just a yoga guy that humps everything.

Get very rich. Yeah, oh, that was a good one, too. Super funny, linguistically off the charts, talented, very bright guy. Clearly smart. Yeah, clearly very smart. But also has overcome major drug addiction and has written about it, shared about it. Anyway, where he's really sort of stamping his name right now is by being a radically moderate thinker. And he is bathing in nuance daily. And he recently went on a big circuit, on a big media circuit. And so now he's a little bit more even in everyone's awareness than before. He was on Rogan. He was on, I guess, Bill Maher.

I haven't seen that. But what is he poking at, really? Like, what is going on? Because he's been documenting COVID, media lives.

I love Russell. He's a rapper.

Probably more of a lefty, let's be honest. He's always been more of a lefty for sure. He's very open-minded.

When I said it himself, yeah.

Get very rich.

Yeah, very bright guy.

Clearly smart, yeah. January 6th, everything. He will not hold back from tackling any of this. But is there a through line to what he's really all about, Stephen?

I'm curious, because you also watch him. I'm curious, because you also watch him. I think most people plant their flag in left or right, or libertarian, or social, whatever, right? But he's sort of planting his flag in truth and social well-being and love, broadly speaking. And I think that's like a message that resonates with a lot of people. The thing that got my attention was he was on Bill Maher a few nights ago. He had this dialogue with the MSNBC anchor who was on the show, and he went on some rants about how MSNBC is just Fox on the left. And he's like, it's no better, it's no different. And he kind of like really ripped the mask off. And he actually did a follow-up video on his YouTube channel that I think was really cool. Even better. He got some applause from the crowd.

The anchor, of course, scoffed at the idea that NBC was anything like Fox, because Fox is the evil empire, and they're so, so bad. But yeah, he's sort of right. He's pitching this sort of opt-out thing. People are like, ah, I gotta choose MSNBC, or I gotta choose Fox. And I think a lot of people think this, and I think we all think this. It's all sort of bullshit, in a way. And people are letting these entities with these interests that aren't disclosed shape their conception of what is the nature of reality, in a way. Like if you listen to MSNBC all the time, you will literally have a different perception of what reality is than somebody who listens to Fox all the time. You literally are living in different worlds now. Like to Russell's credit, he went on, he did an episode on his YouTube where he just basically eviscerated MSNBC. He's like, this is ridiculous. He's like, you know who owns MSNBC?

BlackRock and GM. You know GM is the largest defense contractor in the world. There's no criticism of war on MSNBC, because there's this agenda to perpetuate war and sell military devices. There's no criticism of the vaccines or anything. He's like a very kind of like COVID questioning guy, because Pfizer is like an enormous like sponsor.

You don't want to get into a debate with someone like him, because he's just so linguistically, like genius and off the track. Kind of the same thing that Jordan Peterson does to people though. They both pay attention to every single word that is mentioned. Uh oh, we got it, we got it. I like it. I want to hear this later. It's like, yeah. No, no, it's the same, man. Give on check. They both, some people believe that people like Russell Brand are superfluous in their speech.

I think that, I want to hear this later. So it's like, yeah, it's the same, man.

Give on check. While it may appear superfluous, every word is additive in the sense that it, it just further clarifies the statements and adds color that is important because it's nuance. Without that nuance, you're kind of lost and you're making very blanket statements. You're making very radical statements. What Russell does well, which I think Jordan Peterson also does well, is they're very, very particular about nuance. But that's not the point of the conversation.

Yeah, I think the point that underlies what he's talking about, in a way, maybe it's not his exact point, but it's what I thought about it when I saw him and I saw all this, like a lot of stuff happened in the last week. And I was actually listening to a Hidden Forces pod with Demetri Kofinas a few days ago and the topic was, they brought forth this idea of the question of the pod was, what happens to consensus reality? And I thought that was a very interesting concept, like consensus reality. We used to, as a nation, as a culture, there was a consensus about what reality is and how we don't have that. We just simply create, we're crypto people, right? And the whole point of blockchain, right, is you have all these individual autonomous actors that sort of get together and they achieve consensus, like what is truth, right? What is the true state of the chain? What is the financial history of the system? And it's a beautiful thing in that these people who don't trust each other or interact with each other in any other way, they just sort of are able to come to consensus on what reality is. But in a blockchain world, when there isn't consensus, you get a fork, the chain splits. There's two different visions of what the chain is. And that's what's happening in society right now.

We forked society. We've got the Bitcoin cash of base reality and the Bitcoin of base reality. There's all these other chains going on. People have opted out and they're doing their own version of base reality and sort of propagating that. And it's mostly being fed through these media outlets that Russell points out are actually not so dissimilar in what happens underneath of it. And I think the biggest example of this, I think it was like a huge red pill moment for a lot of people, I know for me it was, was COVID. We're still to this day are seeing all of the stuff kind of come to light that a lot of people at the time were questioning with good reason and they were sort of just shut down and so much has happened recently. And I don't know which one of you guys wanna dive into but like off the top of my head, Pfizer basically admitted that the vaccines don't prevent transmission. The Fauci stuff has been incredible.

So I think Pfizer admitted that from the outset. Can I just jump in here? I think as I'm listening to you guys, first of all, I don't follow the influencers that you guys do, right? This has just never been my thing. But I appreciate people who are out there living in the messy gray ocean and trying to bring nuance to light, I love that. It's like essentially what we're doing, right? I love that. I think where I land on most of this stuff is like what we're gonna talk about today is like, that is messy gray, right? Like there are narratives that come from this angle or from that angle and those narratives are going to sort of like support whatever their ultimate agenda is from the left or the right or whatever angle they're trying to come from. And I can live in this messy gray that remains gray. Like this to me is like, I don't know. Is that okay?


It's sometimes okay and it's sometimes okay. And I think there's messy gray within messy gray, right? So like I don't- Oh shit. Yeah, we're gonna go like messy gray inception. So I think COVID itself is like very messy and I don't wanna turn this into like necessarily like a discussion on like, oh, we're lockdowns effect or whatever, right? Like there's, but there's stuff that's come out in the last week. So two things came out, I think that are worth noting. Like one has been the revelation that Anthony Fauci, back in the day, like do you remember in the lab leak hypothesis we put forth and then Fauci basically squashed it. There was like an article published in Nature magazine and everybody cited this as being like, oh, but this is the thing. What a great study and Fauci cited it. Well, this week we learned that like Fauci himself commissioned the article and sort of approved it. There was no disclosure.

So he, yeah, we're gonna go like messy gray. I don't think there's messy gray with that. I think it's objectively like, that's what happened and it's not good. But then we had another thing happen this week, which is that, oh God, like I think the Cochrane group, they're very very held in like high esteem. They put out a huge meta study on masks, right? And this one was interesting to me because I was on Twitter and I have like a very healthy diet of left and right Twitter and my right Twitter feed was unanimously like, see, masks don't work right there in the study. And then the left Twitter feed was like, these idiots like they can't even read this study. And I was like, wow, this is interesting. And that, like I actually looked into this for a while today. I like dug into it and everything. And I was like, oh yeah. Like if you actually read the study, it certainly doesn't say that like masks aren't effective.

That's not what the study says, but you could read into that if you really wanted that to be your reality. And then you could do the same for the other side, right? So like, I feel like it's really emblematic of a lot of stuff that happens in the world where it's just like we aren't given this like neat, clean black and white thing. We have this information that gets like filtered to us, like through all of these sources. And then we're fed like these competing versions of reality.

And it's kind of hard to kind of tell you.

And I was like, wow, this is like hard to deal with, to be honest. Here's how I kind of put this in a box for myself is that I've come to use the analogy of theater. Like it feels like all of it is theater. They're up on a stage and trying to accomplish an objective and they have to be on the same page. You have to be reading the same script, moving in motion with each other because God forbid, if anything gets confusing at any time, the audience is not gonna know what we want them to do. It really is theater. And going back to what Eric said, he's like, I'm okay living in the messy gray when things are ambiguous. And I think the underlying assumption of the actors or the directors in the play is that the majority of people can't live in the messy gray. They may wander from the call to action that we want them to make. They assume that we can't handle ambiguous information or conflicting facts at any time. And that they need to have a script in order to move masses at times. And so-

Of course. Of course. And so- If everyone lived in the messy gray, like what would- It would feel like chaos. What would happen for politics. Right, so- No one would prescribe to any one person a way of thinking and no one would wield power.

Right. It's about power. It would feel like chaos. What would happen for politics.

Right, so-

It's about power. And like if you are Fauci and you wanted to just maybe not be public that you authored this paper and maybe both administrations kind of agree with you because they need the audience to take a certain action. And if they weave one little fact that could like undermine the script, then they might do it. So I do think it's from like probably originally stems from maybe like an altruistic goal of like we have to control 300 million people in order to take- Altruistic. Maybe, it might, but then it compounds on itself, right? And then sooner or later, the end result is now in the media format that we live in. This stuff eventually comes out and then the whole institution gets crumbled because of it. So you have a theater, you have actors and directors who can't feel they can't give them a true messy, but more factual view of what's actually going on because they might divert. And in that process, they kind of undermine the whole institution and that's where we're feeling now. Like, can I even trust, you know, the National Institute of Sciences or the NIH

or like the experts anymore? It must be at an all time low, the trust.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the stat of like trust of mainstream media is an important one that I don't think people talk about enough. I think we all know, most people should know, like trust of mainstream media is at an all time low. Okay. But what does that mean? It means that you have like essentially these two cohorts of media, which I know we say oftentimes that one side is a little bit underrepresented, the right is a little bit underrepresented, but Fox is huge. You know, people like. Number one most popular network. Huge, Carlson is huge.

I guess huge.

Number one most popular. But the left in general is predominantly sort of in control of a lot of other facets of reality, whether it be Hollywood or the financial system or the academic, I mean the academic system. Like the. I mean, by and large. The health infrastructure.

The health system is completely dominated. Trolled by.


Is completely dominated. And anyone that is center or right of left is out of academia. Like you can't exist out of anyway. So that is the case. You have these two cohorts that have been in battle. What you had before was more of a healthy balance and an equal sort of acceptance of one another. Like growing up as kids, it was just like, yeah, Johnny's parents are Republican. And we used to say the words Republican and Democrat. When was the last time you guys heard that to describe somebody? You don't describe somebody as Republican or Democrat anymore. You describe them as left to right, as conservative or liberal. And actually there's, it's a more loaded language.

It's more divisive. It's more polarizing. Because Democrat or Republican was just, oh, what party do you vote for? Oh, cool. Party representation under one system. One system. The United States of America. So you ultimately have to vote for a person to represent you. But it was under one system. In this system of left and right, of conservative and liberal, we're talking about identity that is deeper than just my political sort of affiliation. We're talking about identity that comes down to reality. What reality do I believe in?

What do I believe about COVID? What do I believe about, I mean, everything has become politicized. And that's really, I think for me, the difference is that we no longer have any unifying sort of mechanism that brings all Americans or all Europeans or all Asians or whatever together. And then of course, so many countries follow America's sort of social unfolding and evolution. And next thing you know, the whole world is just like unraveling into what is reality. And I think it's a really scary and serious situation, actually, because I don't think anyone knows anymore who to trust, what to believe. And I mean, what does the world look like

if that's the case? It'll look like if that's the case. It's not only more, can I trust them? It's, well, how do I pull the curtain down? Like, what do I need to find to say this theater, this plays is not actually true. And it's beyond, can I trust them? It starts with suspicion. How do I?

Yeah, how do I pull the curtain down the whole play? So like everyone has become this like investigator.

Right, right. It feels like it, more so than in the past.

But we've said that that is necessary and healthy. And I do agree with that.

Because in this world, it is necessary and healthy. Yeah, I mean, I just wish they would have, these things would have been able to come out a little sooner and not be labeled as conspiracy theory. So we could have had this mishmash of arguments, even if people are polarized, at least there was a mishmash of arguments. So when a vaccine came out, you could make a decision for yourself

with more information than maybe most people did before. Maybe most people did before. Yeah, we didn't have open discussion. Like what happened was, we just like had these powerful people who were in control, whether it was in control of like the health bureaucracy or in control of the social media algorithms. They decided that this is truth, and I'm going to shut down everything else. And I'm going to sort of do this like, ends justify the means thing. Like you see this a lot, right? Like this is like the, you know, the optimistic in a way, look at what happened. It's not some like global cabal trying to do stuff. It's just like, oh, these people in power thought that they were smarter than everybody else. Then of course they should use their intellect to like enforce this like, you know, view upon the world. And it's a very dangerous thing because like often we've often seen like intellectuals and elites in society wildly overestimate like how intellectual they actually are and overestimate their ability to essentially plan things.

This is like a very central tenet of like conservatism and libertarianism. The idea that like the marketplace of like human wisdom is much smarter than even the smartest giga brain in the world. And you kind of saw that happen. We've got some like fourth turning stuff going on, right? We talk about that. Like when you're in the fourth turning, you have the downfall of the institutions. There's like loss of faith in the institutions. I think it's like an interesting discussion of like why this happened. Like I understand sort of like people on the, you know, they'll call them like the sort of intellectual elite side of things. The scientists in there, of course they're like, These stupid people are I. We need to like, a good telling thing was the leaking of that WhatsApp chat in the former U.K. like health minister.

Like he's talking about how they have to release the news. I thought it was fake news when I saw it. He was just talking in the chat about like releasing the new variant so scare the pot but that's what they were doing. They're like, we need to scare them with this fake made up thing so that we can enact.

enact the public good. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It looks so fake. It looks so fake. It was like when do we deploy the new variants? Yeah. Like as if it's like we're shipping code,

like a new feature. Yeah. Yeah, because I think they got stuck on this original hypothesis they came with that everyone has to take the vaccine. And this is all, this is the one objective that we're going for. We're not going to be like this discovery driven approach where we kind of reevaluate our. Is that what you think it was?

I think so. And then so you think to claws deploying the variant was simply to.. Scare people into make the action that you want of the initial ad.

And also scare people into make the action that you want. Also, if you, if you're on a government level and you reverse the script, in their minds are like, we failed, like we, we are a failure because not only did we get it right, but And now we're reversing and it's like flip-flopping as a politician, as like a person in power, is like a sign of like, you don't know what's going on. It's weakness, you're for surely losing your job at some point. And so, yeah, it's, I think that's where I frame it. I don't frame it in this like, malicious, we need to sell, we need to make sure our advertisers have enough money. Like, I really don't know if that comes in.

Russell Brand does talk about that.

I keep this malicious talk about that. That happened too in other areas. Like, I think the idea that these drug companies are throwing gigantic bags of cash at like, like you can all see, we've all seen that clip right now where it's like, CNN health brought to you by Pfizer. And you're like, wait, is this real? And it's just like, unsurprisingly, the whole health segment was just very pro-you consuming Pfizer products. And it's like, should that really be how the world is? Isn't this like a weird conflict of interest that made me think about like this sort of BBC model, right? Not that the UK had good outcomes, like, you know, so that's where I kind of like pull myself. I was actually talking about this with one of the guys from the Discord, like I recognize the need to have some like collective action in areas like this. I think it's like, it'd be good to have like a government

broadcast kind of network in theory anyway, because like- And you're like, wait, is this real? Yeah, and it just like, feels uncertain a lot.

Unsurprisingly. Wait, these organizations get corrupted by their advertisers. They push the narratives that they're at. Like MSNBC is back on Wall Street.

NPR was on the same path, right? Like NPR followed the script. It's a good kind of point. They're one of the actors.

And NPR, they're one of the actors. And the UK was arguably one of the most authoritarian, dystopian, you know, influencers in the Western world.

So it's like authoritarian, you know. NPR is hypothetically the narrator in the story, you know, like-

I have a question for you guys. It's like a bit of a devil's advocate take, but it's like a, it's an actual question because I don't know. So like what you're describing is like how the populace is sort of bifurcating itself. That's true, right? You have like left, right, like you described. But like, what about in a segment of the population that actually ascribes themself to something different or maybe bigger than left, right? Like you talked about the military earlier today. Like what about the guys within the military? I'm sure there are guys within the military on the left and the right. Yeah, I don't- Do you think that like within that segment of the populace, that exact segment, do they have this infighting? Or is that more of our thing? Because they don't have it because they're already worried about something bigger than that and they just kind of ignore this left right thing.

Like I don't know. I don't know that many guys in the military

and all the guys I do know are actually just hard, right? Yeah, I don't like-

Do you think that- I don't, I think there's like healthy discussion within like your super in group. I think that the country is not divided in the left, right. I think it's divided into four quadrants. There's like a left or right. And then there's like a sort of like corporate and populist wing, right. Like people on the left, like don't necessarily look at like MSNBC and like Nancy Pelosi and be like, oh yeah, this is great. Like our interests are being, because they're just like corporate Democrats. They're basically in the pockets of Wall Street. They've done nothing. They did nothing on abortion for decades, right? Dropped the ball on that. And then they did nothing on like healthcare, all of these like green new deal, all of these like things that are really important to like the left left, it's just they just throw them like a little crumbs and they sort of like all push the corporate interests.

And it's the same thing on the right. You got like Nancy Pelosi, and then you get like Mitch McConnell, you know, like a lot of people on the right, they refer to like conservative, Inc. like the Daily Wire with Ben Shapiro, like a lot of people on the left are like, oh, this is like far went crazy. But there's like this huge faction on the right who like mocks that element to the right, they're like populist, they're like you guys are like establishment conservatives, You're like fighting for these and like people, people don't get this. There's this whole wing within the Republican party that is very much not like free market. You got like Josh Howley, who's saying like, we should ban social media for people under 17. Like that's not like a Milton Friedman position, right? You know, so there is like this, there's actually a pretty big like splintering of these like groups like happening. It's much simpler than like a black or white left or right thing.

I guess I was wondering, I guess I'm just wondering if you are worried about something much bigger than that, like your own life and you're in the trenches with somebody else and your lives are at stake,

do you just not give a fuck? I think that's maybe a bit of an outlier situation.

Maybe, maybe. I'm just wondering, because I don't know enough people in the military to know like, how do they feel? Are they bifurcated or quadrant?

I think it's similar to your what if aliens arrive example. Like when you are in the military, you're representing the nation. When you're representing the nation, you sort of usurp any division that exists politically, automatically, because it's a nationalist patriotic action to serve and defend the nation. So something has to bring you together and it's an existential threat.

Another country. Well, here we go. Then I can already tell where this whole thing's going because they're going to try to galvanize the entire nation in unison against a common enemy and that's the way that's gonna go.

No, I don't think that at all. I think it's very profitable to have people splintered. I think there's a reason, like, Wall Street donates money to both sides. Like you get your opponents fighting against each other. You sit back on the sideline and you win no matter who wins the knife fight. I think that that's what they want. I don't think there's an incentive to unify people. I think this sort of happens by design. Maybe not from the top down, but that's just the incentives of the system make it play out that way in a way.

You guys feel satiated with that? Cause I'm gonna pivot here. You wanna pivot? Yeah, fuck it, let's pivot. So I wanna pivot because we're 45 minutes in, but I know also this is gonna be a good discussion. So one of the things that we've all discussed before just as friends is this idea of like, we're all either in a relationship. One thing that is commonly discussed is should you live with your significant other, your partner, before you get married? And of course, assuming you get married, should you live with that person? And Jordan Peterson, he goes on these tours. He has these talks with audiences. He also does a YouTube channel and podcast and a million other things that he does to get his content out there. And I think everyone knows this, but he's a psychologist from Toronto, from Canada, clinical psychologist.

And he went on this rant and he gave five reasons for why he believes you should not live with your significant other before you get married. Now, this is a topic that I personally have always thought about, wondered what is best? Did I make the right decision? Did we do it the right way? Am I at a detriment because we did or did not do it this way? I mean, speaking just for myself, like Erika and I did not live together before we got engaged. We moved in together after we got engaged. And I have to say like, it was a shock in a sense. And I've shared this with all of you. It was like, I've often said, I wonder if it had been a softer landing if we had spent time living together before we got married, before we got engaged. Because then I would have had the opportunity to learn how she lives, how she organizes. What is her, this style, that style?

What are our quirks? What are our mannerisms? What is the system of life that we're gonna create to live together? And I've always thought that that is beneficial. And yet, at the same time, I look at many different societies where that's either not allowed or people just don't decide to do that. And Jordan Pearson had this really great breakdown. And I think you all watched it or at least have an opinion on the idea in general. But there's also a deeper discussion here that I think maybe is actually

the more interesting part of the discussion around. You wanna pivot?

Yeah, fuck it, let's pivot. How a man in particular should approach dating and how to really look at the number of partners you wanna have before you get married and you settle down with that one, that one who's gonna be yours for the rest of your life, assuming you're in a monogamous relationship and you're gonna be loyal, you're gonna be with one woman for the rest of your life. And there's some really interesting stuff around that. And there's a tweet that you shared, Steven. Yeah. I think illustrated that. Yeah I think so. So either one of those is interesting to me,

but they're both interesting. Yeah.

I think illustrated that. Yeah, I think that.

So either one of those. I think I have a slightly different, I agree that there's like something bigger at the root of what he says. There's something bigger than like should you live together before marriage? I think there's a discussion to be had on a lot of I think consensus modern wisdom as it pertains to dating and marriage. And the should you live together before you get married is like a subset of this idea that it is good to take your time, to explore as many options as possible, to get things out of your system, to kick the tires on the car, to do everything you can to make sure that you are doing the optimal thing in your life for yourself.

And only then you jump into the deep end of the ball. The whole thing as much as possible because you're making a lifelong decision.

That's like the basic idea. That's like the basic idea. Try as many partners out as you can. Definitely sleep with somebody before you get really into them because I don't know. You've gotta get that out of the way, before you date them. Yeah you might suck at sex or you might suck at sex. You can't do that. And then definitely live together as long as possible before you. because I don't know, right? And I think that is actually, I would say that's consensus in the society that we all live in, I would say. And the JP video you sent, I think, is kind of a reaction to that and a counter argument to that.

And I think that is sort of like the root for you dating them. You might suck at sex

or you might suck at sex.

Yeah, you can't do that. And the question at hand here, is it better to jump in the pool or is it better to do everything possible? Check all of your surrounding areas, take as many swimming lessons as possible, wait till you're like 32 and then maybe dip your toes in the water. So I'm curious if anybody watched that or had like a strong... I certainly have some thoughts, but I would love to. If you're gonna pass the ball?

I would love to pass the ball. Nick, you wanna take a ball? Yeah, I mean.

Nick is a throw-haver. Nick is like a throw-haver. I was just like full of shit, like.

I thought you might say that I couldn't agree more.

You thought that he was full of shit. Yes. Okay.

All right.

So it's very consistent in this opinion. I did think about the whole should you live before marriage, but let's take it as the for the whole case we're talking about. I'll say it in one way first. One, I do think there is a certain amount of growth you need to have as an individual in order to make things work long-term. Let's call it emotional maturity. And the only way I know to grow through emotional maturity is through making mistakes, growing experiences, getting corrected, having feedback in my life go bad and be like, hmm, how did that go bad? And maybe you could do therapy and other ways to accelerate that. But for the most part, there's a reason they call wisdom wisdom that requires experience. And for all of us as a group, maybe there are past girlfriends that could have been the one, but we were not emotionally mature enough to make that work. Or maybe they weren't at that time and they needed to go through experience. And it's not necessarily about that person, but there needed to be experience in this case. And I think it really matters.

The other point I'll bring up is, you guys know Gary Chapman. He's an author. He wrote the book, Five Love Languages. It's his most popular book. So I call him like a credible person on understanding and studying marriage.

I think the Five Love Languages are a great framework. Absolutely. I just wanna be touched. Yeah, the whole world knows, pal. Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. I just wanna be touched. Yeah.

The whole world knows, pal. Yeah. Yeah. So he has another book called Things I Wish I'd Known Before We Got Married. And you can look at the table of contents to understand where he's going. And he's talking about how love is not adequate foundation for successful marriage. You need to understand their parents' relationship. You have to understand you're also marrying into a family, not just that person. You have to learn how to have disagreements with that argument. You have to learn how to apologize and forgive. You have to discuss chores, to-dos, management of a household, and management of a family. Finances, you accept both each other's risk tolerances financially when you combine houses.

And also, he makes a case that perfect sex isn't automatic. Sexual fulfillment isn't just from day one. So the point being is that not only do you need experience with other people, but I think you need experience with that one person to feel out, hey, this is more than just us being in a relationship. This is a melding of two lives, two families, two risk tolerances to everything that I don't know if it makes sense to take that risk in one lump sum by starting with divorce. I also would say that you mentioned cultures are very accepting of that, that like, hey, we don't live in each other until we get married. But those cultures also have the same thought towards divorce. We just don't get divorce. It is not acceptable. It is ultimate failure. Some are religious, some are cultural, like a lot of traditional Indian families. It's not a thing, you just tough it out. So I don't know if that skews the data, but that certainly came my way.

And then I'll throw a third more fun one out. I came across this a long time ago, but someone came up with a math formula for the number of people you should date before you should decide, you may have heard it. It was like a math problem in figuring out how many people should you interview before a potential job. And step one, you estimate how many people that you could date in your life. So if you're a heavy dater, it might be like, I don't know, 30 if you're less. Maybe say, I'm really gonna realistically date like five people in my life. You take the square root of that number and you date and reject all the people up into that point. And that establishes your benchmark of like what works with you. And then the first person that you date that exceeds that benchmark, you seal the deal. I don't know that Matthew is more for fun. But there is a formula out there if it just all seems too complicated. I love that there's all.

I don't know.

There's always a formula.

You want to just. You want to just.

well I guess we figured it out anyways ball to well I guess we figured it out

anyway I'm curious what you think and why I thought it was bullshit for two reasons one was his approach to the conversation that I that was bullshit and then the other part was like the the actual idea of the conversation so his approach I thought was bullshit because I thought he was just kind of straw manning like he came up he came right out of the And he's like, well, of course you test drive a car before you buy the car. But women aren't cars. Like, you know, the whole crowd's like, yeah, yeah, JP, fuck yeah. Women aren't cars. I was like, what the fuck is this? Like, okay. I was like, fucking straw man. And he did that like three times. Like three of his five things were actually straw man. And I thought, um, but then when he got into like the metaphysical examples, I, I, I started seeing like real bullshit, which I, I take as this. It's like he quoted your boy Carl Jung. Okay.

And Carl Jung, uh, said something to, to the effect of like, Hey, um, a relationship can be like, uh, uh, what do you call it? Like a chemical reaction and a chemical reaction requires heat and pressure.



I was like, what the fuck is this? Okay.

In a relationship, heat and pressure is applied by your marriage. It's by applied by the fact that you cannot leave. You are stuck together. And that applies heat and pressure. I agree that that does apply heat and pressure, but I also know that heat and pressure is applied by life. Regardless of your marital status. Like a good friend of mine that was at my bachelor party, he got stage four cancer at age 32 and his girlfriend stuck by his side. He survived. He was at my bachelor party. Um, he went on to marry that girl. And there's nothing that's, that is life applying heat and pressure to the relationship outside of the marital construct that JP says is the only way to apply heat and pressure. I know that's not true.

So I mean, I can tell a story about me and Mina's heat and pressure that I got applied and it would take 14 minutes. I don't want to do it, but like, all I'm saying is I think the idea of living together is not actually It doesn't even matter. It's like when you spend time with somebody, you and Erica spent a lot of time together without living together. You've had heat and pressure applied during those years as you were dating and you get to know that person and that partner of yours has the choice to leave or not during those times. And that matters, like how they respond to those external impacts

can be indicative of how they will. Do you think it's a bigger deal to leave somebody

when you're dating or when you're married? My big problem was that he said that living together cannot simulate marriage. I was like, that's false. It's a great simulation. It's an incredible simulation. When you're living with somebody, they have the choice whether or not to leave when life gives you heat and pressure. And when they stay, when you both choose to stay, that's like, that's the best simulation.

Like, fuck. That's not true, bro. That's not true at all. If you're just living with someone, it's a lot easier to leave. Yeah, you can literally just, yeah, I agree. You just go at any time. There's no, there's no consequence. I mean, I asked you like, what happened with that girl, Eric? You're like, ah, Jessica, I mean, we moved out. I, you know, I left like no big deal, but what I'm on, I got a divorce.

Which part are you disagreeing with? You're literally just, I agree. You just go at any time.

There's no, there's no constant plans. Arm on, I go, which part. Which part are you disagreeing? Are you disagreeing with the fact that life cannot apply heat and pressure?

No, I'm going to the second, no, I'm going to the second part

of you're passing. A plane where you don't really know how to fly and you have a parachute and you're flying a plane and you don't really have no how to fly. You don't have a fucking parachute. And like one of those scenarios, you're like,

I got to fucking figure out how to land this plane. We're in it now. So I want to pick it up. Let's all like dive into this. Like I'm specifically on the part about, is it easier to leave a relationship when you're married versus dating? Yes. Okay. So if you live with someone before, like before you are married, does it do anything?

Ultimately, ultimately. It instructs exactly how you will respond

to heat and pressure. Yeah, it instructs you to be easily able to walk away.

No, I'm telling like, no, I'm telling like, so in my, in my, in my marriage, just there. So what I'm saying is that like you, you've married somebody and so have I, I live with the person before marriage. I guess you did too, but like you dated for a long time before moving in. We're both married. We're both happy. Does it matter? No, that's my point. The, this whole argument is stupid because at the end of the day, all you're trying to do is assess whether or not you two want each other for life. It has nothing to do with whether or not you live together or not. Living together means you spend more time together, which means that you might have more opportunities to apply heat and pressure to that relationship, which can simulate what marriage will force you to do, but at the end of the day, I don't think it's-

Until the marriage is there.

Until the day. I don't think that it fucking matters. I don't think.

I think we're conflating two things. I think we're conflating two things. We're missing a point.

Jordan point is a missing a point. Jordan point that the more partners you have beforehand the more likely.

That's another point.

Look, I think these things tie into something

that is much deeper at a societal level. This is why Jordan Pearson people like this get misinterpreted so much, because they're packing in 17 points that are really each like necessary to unpack and I agree with all the points you're making but I think there's different ways of looking at those points so I yeah I do think this is important shit and we should take them one by one I'm trying to organize yeah so number one the most important are women cars because I think it's easy to straw man someone who's straw man as well like it's it's so easy for us to straw man everything we yes I feel like you did straw man we're in like a straw man inception we are so we are so okay let's just start with like is it beneficial or not to live with somebody before you get married I'm saying it doesn't matter you're saying it doesn't matter yes and but I think we should leave the pressure cooker analogy aside okay okay so I mean I mean the data suggests that it it does and Nick were you saying on this particular point that the data might be skewed because you're tapping into and we don't know the the data we don't know but that we're looking at societies that sort of obligate you to wait anyway and then shun you if you were to ever get divorced so the data is obviously going to benefit the ones that wait to live together until they get married yeah

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah this ain't the same cultures that say hey you need to wait till marriage also I thought that was very good are very against divorce and their cultural norms and social contracts but I thought that was really

good and like really good somebody who wanted to use data to present their own argument would use that data in the raw they without without talking about a

nuance. Yeah, they would. Yeah, that's very fair. I mean, to his credit, he did point

out that there is likely a selection bias in the very first election bias in the very

first there likely is in the thing started. He mentioned that and I'm like, Oh, good. Yeah, solved.

There is a big selection bias. What about to say? Data was point number one. I don't know if there are other points, but I think there's like a deeper thing here that I found it to be true for me. Anecdotally, I think there's something that just did you live together

before. We did not live until I proposed. Okay. So we got engaged. Did you live together

before we did not live. No, which I think is optimal in what I, what I found is that by moving in together, after that points, there was a strength to the relationship that did not exist before. I was not going to be able to just walk away and there were things that came up that of course in relationship are frustrating or you learn things about each other. And there's like this I called it a shock. It's like this shock of like now we're finally really living together. We're not just living together six, five days a week because we date each other and we're spending time at each other's houses. But but now our closets are joined, our lives are joined, we have to clean the house together, we have to do all those things together, and there's a bit of this whoa factor, oh my God. And at that point, you force yourself to say, I gotta find out how to make this work. And I think that the obligation of the union, that now this is something he alluded to, you have gone through a ceremony, you've stepped in front of your friends, you've promised that you're gonna be with this person, you've signed a document. Some of us believe, I believe for sure that like eh, whatever who needs that document. But you're doing all these things that signify that this is important. Oh I completely agree with all of that.

And this part for me really stood out where it's like yeah, the fact that I did that. I stood in front of my friends, if you are religious, I stood in front of God, I made a promise, I said till death do his part

and you do all these things, that is significant. All that shit matters and that's my point, he's straw manning because that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about living together before getting married, he's talking about marriage. Like, marriage does matter.

We're talking about living together before marriage. Of course, JP, marriage matters. I feel like you're totally missing his point. No, he's a fucking straw man. No, his piece of shit is that... Point is that...

Oh my god!

No, his point is that... Oh my god! His point, which I...

I swear to god...

His point, which I, sort of agree with... I'm not following Eric. I'm not following Eric. You're saying that marriage matters, standing in front of your friends and giving your vows to each other matters.

I agree. The fact that as a society, we take marriage as this thing where we have to kick the tires and make sure all of our other options, we don't have any other better options, make sure everything is good. It sort of defeats the point of it. Like his point was that there is this element of faith in marriage, the leap, the idea that you're just jumping blindly into the abyss. There's something significant about this. So when you treat it as like another transaction, one of the other billions of transactions in life where you, you check out all the reviews and you make sure this is good and you optimize it, you are inherently

something about it. In this society, jumping. You're always making a leap eventually. And so when you make that leap but you wait to make that leap until you're married, what it does is it just forces you to figure things out. It adds pressure and you go through a journey together where you get to know each other in a new way. And he had a whole rant about that.

And he had a whole rant about that. And here's, here's another take too. Like I think that when I think the whole dating paradigm of society is like

totally fucked and I would like to say that away from the JP video, which I'll throw in the discord, but more toward this, like this dating idea.

Yeah, and I say that as like a lifelong participants and enjoyer of this like fucked paradigm and somebody who I you know has gone through it all and like I would say like hasn't made me any happier better as a person so like I'm you know I'm saying this from experience like would you have been happier if you would have married the first go you dated? Yeah, that's not the question. Like that's a straw man, right? That's not a straw man. Like he's not advocating for marrying the first person you date. But like when you take the institution very seriously right and you date and you're like, okay, like the next step. We get married there isn't like oh we're gonna move in and then we're gonna live together for like seven years

Why can you not take it seriously when you move in and think of that as a step towards marriage?

Let me finish my point When you have this sort of like idea and force that's cultural right or it's just like you're dating The goal of dating is to get married and the goal of marriage is to have like kids in a family, right? And there's this strict structure enforced people take the dating series there's the what arcs current like society like has created this thing where there's this like Soupy nonsense that people float through or it's just like where are we? What are we doing? Like? Just fucking Coast and then like they don't take the institution and at the end of it you get like a bunch of fucking nonsense Like it's not it's no surprise to me that everybody's like wandering around like unhappy. Everybody's fucking getting divorced Like everybody's having more sex than ever with more partners than ever but people are more miserable, but it's because like the rules like we're put in place over thousands of years because like Societies evolved to realize how dumb humans are and how bad that like and that those structures evolved for a reason and like when you break that apart and you just allow people like if you give like a like a seven-year-old like Leeway, you know do what you want like here that whatever but get there They end up like missing the mark more times than not because like there's like a like an element of that structure that makes things Fucking work and when you remove that like it doesn't it doesn't work as well And when you when you say like, oh, I have the option to do this or that You take it less seriously whether or not you think you do you're like I have a I have an escape valve whenever you think you have a parachute whenever you think you have an escape valve you are likely to kind of slack off more. You stay in things, maybe you shouldn't be. Like I would argue that like some of my past relationships, like if I was forced into this paradigm where like, okay, you get engaged, you move in. Let's just like, I think engagement is reasonable. Like I think you get engaged and move in, I think it's fine. Maybe marriage is a bit of a stretch. But like if I had that, like it would have forced me, especially in my younger years to be like, oh wait, why am I here?

What am I doing? But because I didn't have that, you get this like frog and boiling water thing and you're like, yeah, I'm just kicking the tires and I'm doing this. And then you wake up one day and you're like,

where the fuck are you? It doesn't even matter.

Yeah, it lets people. But so that's a way to, it provides respect for the institution, but do you think it provides for a happy person or two happy people? It may be a good setup for a marriage that lasts, but will those two people be happy? Like would you be happy in the first two, three years when you're like, holy shit, we're actually really misaligned in these three areas and we're going to stick it out. Cause like, I respect this thing,

I made a commitment. What you're saying is an argument for things you do in the dating process. I don't think it's an argument for the what you learn as a result of living together. Like I am not advocating for going out one day, with somebody for three months.

You don't want to near

What you learn as a result of living together. I don't want to speed run the bachelor necessarily. Two weeks,

Yeah, two weeks. You know, really enjoying the season of The Bachelor. We could talk about that another time. But, no, I don't really- Same here off Alpha next week? Maybe, maybe Zach's really been groan on me.

Wow, this is very revealing. No, I don't really wanna- Same here off Alpha next week? Maybe. Wow, this is very revealing.

But, no, I think there is something deeper here underlying society. There's this idea that permeates modern society where we have this like, we want this abundance of options and alternatives. And we are like, trying to hyper optimize every element of our life and squeeze out every little bit of self pleasure. And in the end, a lot of people seem to be wandering around without purpose.

And like, so let me read this. So let me read this tweet you found. Um, what do you guys think about this tweet? This is bow tide broke on Twitter. Um, for single guys, take it from an old man who was six, five stud back in the day and all that nonsense self call. Wow. Yeah, I know. Was always told, get it out of your system before you get married. But here is a reality for you young 20 year olds. You don't get it out of your system. You get it in your system.

I found this, uh, very insight, but get, you had to clarify what, what are you getting in your system?

So by having sex with a lot of women, the idea as a man, this might be a shock to some women that hear it for the first time. It's like common male talk. Go have sex with as many women as possible. So your wild, get it out of your system so that when you sign up for one Jina, forget who did that joke back in the day, you get one Jina, you get one Jina for the rest of your life. When you sign up for that one woman, that one vagina that you're content, like that is literally the joke. And so what he's saying is by doing that, by being promiscuous, by dating a lot, by having a lot of sex, you're not getting anything out of your system. You're actually creating it. You're bringing it into your system. You're turning yourself into a promiscuous human being. Who then all of a sudden has to hit the stop button one day. And what happens is how are you going to get that out of your system? When you get married, you then continue seeking that.

And I I don't know, I found that really interesting.

I can't say he's wrong. Like I can't like provide evidence to say, yeah, this is why I agree with that. But I also can't disprove that. I think he's right.

Prove that. I think he's right. He might be right on that. I think where I land on that point is that it reminds me of elementary school like DARE program where it's like, don't smoke any weed. That's going to make you a fucking druggie for the rest of your life. You're going to become a heroin addict. It doesn't have to. It doesn't have to. Like I do think that it is. But we're not all Eric Johan's. It can be dangerous. I agree.

It's like the least addicted person in the universe. What is dopamine? Like that can be dangerous, of course. But like we all, I mean, fuck, we know a lot of guys that have gone through this path and don't have this affliction that this guy is describing.

Hey, it's going to be we're not all Eric Johan's.

We're the least addicted person in the universe. Yeah, what is dopamine?

It's dope. I'm gonna become a trader and be like Stephen, why are you so stressed out to score?

Yeah, I mean what are you saying? So, I have this like.. I believe it. I have these two voices in my head where I'm like absolutely, I totally agree with this and then if you're like okay, go back in time and live life that way, I'd be like, Absolutely not.

No I know exactly.

I believe it.

Absolutely not. No, I know exactly. That's what I was thinking too. But. I would not take as advice. That's only because we have it in us now.

Right, but..

I would not take as advice. But that's all because we have it in us now.

Yeah. But I feel like that is the addict inside of me talking. And I feel like if we put this to like something else, like cocaine, right? And you were like, okay, so what you gotta do is go out and do as much cocaine as possible. And then like, so that you don't want to do any cocaine


I feel like that is- No, but if I could have like 10 nights, you know, then I'd be like, all right, I'm sorry. That's what I'm saying.

I've had way more than 10, and I can tell you, I'm not a cocaine addict. I'm just telling you, like, this shit works. But can we agree that you're just special?

No, I drink.

This shit works. But can we agree that you're just special? No, I'm drink. I think that's just normal, you're special. You're special. You're special.

No, you're not. There's nothing normal about you. There's nothing normal about you. No, I think I'm just personal.

No, no, CongIAN. I think I'm normal. You're special. Are not.

There's nothing normal about you. You have some Buudalabham lid over your dopamine pathways. I don't even know what's going on out there.

I don't think this is crazy.

Your Buudalabham conversa characterized

I don't think this is crazy wired differently. No, I don't your special man. But no, no, I don't your special man But no, no, I mean he's talking about the case where someone dates 30 women and then has like a very faithful

Relationship when they get married and I want to be very clear when they get married and I want to be very common because 80% of dudes cheat so one of the what? Oh, okay. Hold on 50% of them end up getting divorced

You don't think more than that end up cheating. It's one of the what a 79% of stats are made up

So I want to bring this back to something JP said cuz he said something to the effect of Man, what was it? He said like Fuck it's even it's even eluding me now But like I I'm a believer that none of this shit has to like firmly apply at all times like okay I agree with that. I think that's fair. Like at the end of the day, like I but that's just stats Okay, so here's we need them. Yes, so I'll go anecdotal you guys don't like this but anecdotal for me is that I've Okay, here's what JP said JP said that when He specifically like was alluding to dudes doing this But he's like when dudes are hooking up with other girls It can be very exploitative and stuff and I was like, but it doesn't have to be that way like I I know a bunch of a very casual sexual encounters where it was like two people who found each other attractive and Didn't want to spend the rest of their lives together. And I think that's fine Yeah, and that's how I feel about that where it's not like no I'm gonna take advantage of you and like tell you I love you, but then you think that I love you, but I don't

I agree with that. I think that's fair

We need two okay, so you need them yeah, he was finding commonality between people who have promiscuous sex are also Thereby exploitative by nature that it's like common in criminals. So it's common in their relationships

Only applies to someone who desires this end outcome, like if you're desired and outcome isn't to be happily married then like this is all mood, right. Like maybe the person who is like a casual sex enjoyer is just like I don't want that and so it's not even worth that discussion. But like this might be targeted at somebody who is like I want this end state for my life but everybody's telling me I gotta go out there and get all out of my system and by getting it out of my system will be like oh it's like you go to the gym you pound out like 80 reps and you're like I can't lift anymore I'm good but I in like I think there's something to

the tweet where it doesn't work that way. I think there is something like, you were like, well, can I just maybe go back and only have 10? But what if you only had one?

What if you had zero? What if you had zero? That's my point. I think there's a bigger part that he's missing, which is like, at the end of your days, you actually regret the things you don't do. And if you have lived your life with only one, you might be like, what the fuck was I doing?

I don't know very many people have only had one, so like I don't have zero. I know people have zero burgers have won

Like how many people on their deathbed do you hear like I wish it's how many people when they're 40 have been like I married

My high school sweetheart. What the fuck like that's a lot of them. We're we're waiting into the total anecdotal right now I know I would throw a couple quotes out there Um, your stats are totally accurate to you. Once you pop once you pop you can't stop

I know once you Hold on once you go Persian

Like there's a lot of truth to those ideas, I think like ignorance is bliss a lot of areas

Yeah, like if you only had like if you only had one and that's the only one you knew It might be the best thing you've ever thought of like the brain

Compairs, like the brain compares stuff all the time. Of course it does. Give it baseline

It's like it's you're course it does like give you if you're dating today If you're on hinge and tinder and all the apps and you have sex every week And you know that you can have something different every single week and you've tasted all the colors of the rainbow

How do you ever choose a flavor? You find the one how?

for people I know, is that the hinge paradigm like kind of destroys people. Yes, it destroyed don't like the abundance that this is like hinges actually good experiment. For this, right, like we kind of play this out in a way like the uber abundance of hinge doesn't from what I've seen like exhaust people who are using

were like, I'm good It like, and they are sizes them like a drug. They will take that

way. So this really don't. And they have realizes them like a drug they're addicted to and again not talking about anyone in particular but what I have found is that it just actually causes them to lose any desire to be in that state of mind where it's like you might say I'm looking for the one but all you're really looking for is the next lay and you say to yourself I'll know it when I see it but how will you because all you're seeking is to get laid nothing is you have to change your identity to attract the person that would want to be with somebody like that so it doesn't work in my opinion and again we're

speaking about opinions you guys have all the stats no but you admonished me for speaking about opinions.

anecdotes... Alright let's go fight at the bar I love you guys I think we should wrap Nick just walked out I guess he's meeting a guy who is a park for a Tinder date he's being a guy with a punk Punk's breakfast guy em just as a innocent punk

I guess he's being a god who is a park for a Tinder date Panther's breakfast guy brothers

Okay, all right, let's go have a little Wednesday cool. That was it. That was a fun spirit I don't I don't know if we accomplished anything, but I I

Sometimes what I've heard from people is hey, I like when you guys just duke it out over

Solvable thing wasn't so Solvable thing wasn't so I do think I think it's like an interesting type. I actually really like these um social kind of cultural

So I want to I want to wrap it here like I Again, I'm not saying that living together is good or bad I'm saying it doesn't matter because at the end of day you want to just love the person and that's it Yeah, and like I think that JP stance is too extreme. He says don't ever do this or whatever

It's like no just be in love with the person to find the person and that's it. Yeah entering poetry. That's a wrap. Peace