26. Was This the Bottom, Guns, and Porn - Transcripts

June 03, 2022

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Timestamps:
(00:00) - Intro
(03:32) - The Alfalfa Round
(09:28) - Macro this week, Have we passed Peak Inflation? & Timing the bottom.
(27:05) - Talking deeply about Guns, Some stats about Handguns & Rifles, Red flag check & Guns Ownership.
(1:22:52) - Let's talk about porn, Is Porn a Public Health Crisis?

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Arman Assadi aka Krypto Kabob
Eric Johanson aka Crypto CFA
Nick Urbani aka Talipino
Stephen Cesaro aka DeFi Diva

Music by: Allie Gross x KOCH

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Transcript

Welcome ladies and gentlemen to another episode of the Alfalfa podcast. We are for radically moderate internet entrepreneurs serving up alpha in investing, politics and life. We are nick, rabbani steven Cesario, Erik Johansson coming in from Jackson Hole and I'm yours truly Armand Asadi join us as we swim in the messy gray ocean of I don't quite know the answer because oftentimes the truth is somewhere in the middle. All links at dot com, make sure to hit subscribe. Of course, if you're feeling super generous, leave us a review, especially the funny ones. We love those and maybe we'll read it out on the show and last but not least check out our sponsors today. Collective shift for crypto insights and analysis and use our special little code Alfalfa for a no risk free trial, cheers, boys,

cheers salud.

I am ready. I have already

continuing from the,

by the way, what do you got a good question.

I have like agave nectar.

Oh, nice. The old nectar of the gods.

Sure, sorry,

nick. I just interrupted you.

We have some mescal going to kind of continue where we came from from the bank list podcast. So all those joining in freshly new welcome bank this nation. We are definitely one of you and we hope to share some different views today. But yeah, we're continuing the today.

Yes. So agenda for today. Alfalfa around fire, around where we go through, we talk about our trades are moves what we did this week and for our three segments, we've got investing. We're going macro we're talking about. Was this the bottom this week? Very curious to hear your guys perspective policy. We're going guns, gun control,

very

hot, very controversial. This will be a big one and last, but not least for the life segment. We're talking pork. You

guys ready for that?

Oh yeah. Don't hold back now.

That,

Wow, late bloomer. Huh? You didn't have the uh, didn't have the black box by eight years old. nine years old.

Yeah, channel 00 when it was all gray and Fuzzy.

But uh, I had a black box dude, I would wake up at like two am in the middle of the night. It was a whole, we'll talk about that. We'll say we'll talk about that. Um, and uh yeah, welcome welcome back this nation. So we obviously had that incredible episode on bank list. Thank you again to our amazing friend, David. That was so much fun. It was so good. We're having a blast

in the discord with all the all the new bank members coming over. We're having an awesome time

crew in the discord. Like we're having so much fun chatting with you guys and you guys are definitely a whole lot of fun bringing the minimalistic disco vibes inside the discord. Um, so yeah, happy to have all the new friends and faces on twitter and discord. And yeah, let's let's continue it.

I've actually had multiple people

like approached

me and be like, hey, why were you shooting on

X. L.

one and I was like, I'm sorry I had a few, I had a few but like don't, don't take me too literally, you know, I get out there a little, it wasn't one of my more nuanced moments. Well I have to say, I think that's something we bring. Like that's something you bring in particular, you're honest. Chaos objectively. It's chaotic. It's thank you. Pretty nihilistic, chaotic. Let's dive into the alfalfa round. So nick kick us off.

Yeah, let's see what we did last week. I mostly sat tight kind of watching the markets, I did close out some short or some putz on the Q. And the Q. Q. Q. And the NASDAQ. Um I think around the time we did the podcast. Well, I mean it felt at the time like we were about to go higher. I mean we had uh you know, several weekly candles in a row consecutively and uh you know, I definitely missed some dumps on those puts. So I knew I was like going into treacherous territory there. So anyway, I had a small win. I closed them out.

I was in and out of some some shorts on Soul throughout the week. Um man, I wish I would have brought my laptop to the bar because just to save a little bit of extra cash, but I missed out. Um in any case uh did a little bit of that. I sold the Porsche, my optimism Airdrop um love the project, but I kind of have a no old coin policy during this market so trying to stick to it. So anyway that was the moves for the week and uh yeah we'll see what's coming up this week but uh those puts are looking very tempting again, we'll see.

Yeah,

I think last week was one of my worst trading weeks of all time.

Like you lost a bunch of money

or I remember you were like so I'm putting on a bunch of puts and I was like

really

putting inputs here at the bottom where all the support is. And then I immediately went home and shorted a bunch of all coins.

I

was like

asking the question, what do you think? And I didn't do it. So did you?

I

literally did the opposite thing I told you to do. I don't know sometimes I make, yeah, I make bad decisions sometimes. And so so then it was a rough week weekend because Bitcoin immediately just ripped and I was like, oh my God, I'm a moron. I shorted support, I'm an idiot. Uh but I decided to just sit on my hands sometimes you're just gonna sit on your hands and just be like nothing's gonna happen probably in the next 24 hours, calm down, think about it. So I calmed down, I took a step back and then and the Bitcoin and the whole market took a complete shit again today so I felt a lot better and now all my shorts are actually somehow in the green and I think I am actually like net short overall now. I've been just the hedge or before, I was just, how

do you, how do you reconcile that with your soul to be net short, but like reconcile that with your soul to be

okay, I'm not technically short each time, just short, like a basket of like grade a ship coins, you know, just all of the dumbest things. I think that exists where the funding rates

for it. I just wonder if there's like this, like it's super ego thing going on where there's like a clash within your

identity. I don't, I don't, I don't care about all Kryptos or anything, you know, I'm trying to, trying to make money, I care a little bit, but like, I don't, I don't care about Harmony One,

sorry,

I did it again. You know, I like it, it's fine, it's fine. Bu Stephen, sorry, Harmony One fan cool. I love it. Eric on

our, on our bank this episode we said that like you can be bullish the industry, but you don't have to just like hold it forever. So I think that's important to say that like we do, we do like each and every thing long term, but like in the, in the short term, we don't, we don't have to just hold that long and I, you know, I've been looking on the track advice that I've been looking like get out on a pump on some of our like tech holdings that that seemed to happen like right into, into friday. And then like it spilled over into the weekend, the coins. So I exited more of our positions and then took that opportunity short some more little ones and you know, we got the Airdrop on optimism. Again, I am bullish on optimism long term, but for right now I do not want to be holding that. I think getting at a cheaper price, I dump my Airdrop. I'm sorry David Hoffman dumped it. We'll be back in or long term bullish. So that's, that's what I did.

I love it. And uh, I guess to wrap around Optimism Airdrop claimed it. And my favorite part about all of that was the, the quiz, as I called it, the security filter. And I think that yes,

what

did they do? I don't even, I don't even

like,

that's why you were looking at me earlier. I was like, what is this gave you a little like looking at me like a little like quiz. I mean for all the viewers to, it was like, it was like the quiz you get when you cancel your subscription. Like, hey, I noticed you're leaving kind of, but the opposite version like where your optic in and I need to make sure this is actually something you deserve and want and that you understand what you're actually don't give it to you. I think it was actually David Hoffman one time, it was like, Airdrops are not free money, their responsibility. So are you going to take responsibility? And do you understand what you're taking responsibility for? That's basically the way I look at

it. You go through the quiz, Stephen, did you go through this quiz? Yeah,

we like, didn't read it, didn't read it, didn't read it. And then they'll send me your, your airdrop,

They're just gonna

distribute it to everybody else. That would be I I did see that they put out a proposal in governance today to just like ban everybody from future airdrops who dump their airdrops, which is going to go over really well, like yeah, governance. So I hope they're not doing that on the quiz. I, I kept it um kept it and uh we'll see that's basically all, that's all I have to say. That's all I have to say, that all the future free

money.

Um Cool. So we obviously ended with

some

pretty riveting fun, tipsy discussion at the end of the last episode around the merge. Um

some

some back and forth between steven and David nick. Where do we take it from here? Can you set us up to kind of dive into the week of macro and was this the bottom?

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm gonna toss it to to Stephen for some like macro things that happened this week, but we were definitely kind of rumbling around the conversation, is this the bottom? And what impact does the merge have on a potential bottom? Is the merge gonna like exceed macro forces? Are we gonna see the East Btc matrix, you know, persist and well I think you know, Stephen mentioned that that chart looked like it wanted to take a dump and surely a few hours later, it it certainly did. So you know, that's that's one Q but I think it would be good to kind of cover some macro highlights and you know, I think we all give our input on, you know, is this the bottom and what we kind of look at the markets before we get some policy

stuff. Yeah,

I mean last week was a little chaotic in macro, we had stocks bottom but then crypto tanked in spite of the fact that stocks had their best week since 2020 and everybody was like the decoupling but in reverse and there was panic and in ether dumped 12% versus Bitcoin right after our episode lost 20% versus the dollar. That week was one of the worst performing of all the, all the coins. I think there was a a lot of merge fund and some other stuff going on, we can get into that. But then then Bitcoin decided to just send it over the weekend, like a 10% candle in one day and everybody's like yeah bull markets back on baby. And then we woke up today and the whole market dumped all the way, so now we're back in that same kind of range where everybody's like

this is the

bottom and we're accumulating and other people are like this is uh

redistribution

and we're gonna dump more and it's gonna be even worse. So nobody I think knows what's going on right now. There's a lot of people saying like you're an idiot if you're not buying here, there's a lot of people saying we're going a lot lower um curious what you guys

think, I mean I I posted on twitter, I was curious, I think it was like sunday night and I was just like curious, we were obviously having this pump and I'm like what happened last bear market, like what was the biggest pumps? How many pumps did we have on all the way down? And it looks like Bitcoin had six bear market rallies that were over 10% in 2018 on its way from 20 k. To three K. Each had about five of those that were pumps greater than 10% all the way

from all

The greater than 40

percent.

Oh yeah I'm getting to that

brother. And

So so all the way from $1480 and at one both Btc and each had I think four or five weekly candles in the green in which Uh it doubled at one point in April 2018. And so my message is like I don't know where it's gonna go but stay safe like this could be a pump fake. And I think Michael Burry posted on Twitter quite a while back um was Michael Berry. no

Michael berry.

Who's the guy who shorted everything?

Yeah

cassandra, cassandra. Yeah. Um Anyway he posted similar things about the NASDAQ and the S. And P like during those like you know big recessionary periods you see some pretty violent pumps and so I think it's just it's just good to be aware that that's happened and actually stare at the data and be like wow we had multiple of these on all the way down so you know D. C. And helps here. Um But but I don't know if you want to go all in. You know had several people text me, are we diving all in back in the teeth? And I said I'm not personally. But um anyway post the data data twitter, put it in the discord. Um I found it useful to just compile together. Hopefully it's useful for people to stare at and kind of ponder

yeah I mean that that's a good point when you look back at some of these bear charts right? They look ugly. But if you you isolate them, you're like holy crap like you said like

doubled

in this time period. And it's still just went to complete hell right? And then you look at everybody on twitter last week was that you see the meme with the guy was like oh it's like arrow up one

percent

completely losing their ship. I mean what scares me is that I was around in 2018 and everybody wasn't talking about like bear market rallies everybody was still like this is a correction and then eventually everybody was like this is dead and it's never coming back. I don't remember people talking about bear market rallies. This is like the first what I've been and when everybody's like bear market rallies. Bear market rallies. Bear market rallies and I always get scared when like the meta is that everybody is focused on a bear market rally and everybody like everybody who's tweeting or saying anything is like yeah so we're gonna get a bear market rally of Bitcoin up to like 33 35 37 K. You know we're gonna retest there and then I'm gonna dump it, I'm just gonna dump on my old coins on that bearish retest. We're gonna go down to

you should also play the freaking lottery and like try to get the price is right. Like good luck with that.

Like I remember last summer like Bitcoin dumped and then it was just like fuck you just dumped to hell it never came back. It just dumped and it dumped more than everybody was like holy holy crap there is no rally and then people were really scared last something like really scared it was actually going to zero and that was without the crappy macro backdrop and the last kind of bear, we didn't have the macro bill drop as well. So I think it's good to be aware that like the market can rally a ton even if it's not the bottom, but also that it's it's definitely different this time in a particular way, like history rhymes, but it's not exactly the same.

Yeah, I think the question is like that that's certainly a lot of people's mind, especially the macro market is have we gone past peak inflation and you know, I mentioned the discord. There there are

some yeah,

there's some things that that you could be led to believe that we have certainly passed peak inflation, like lumber prices going down, used cars, we might certainly see a decrease in housing costs with mortgage rates going up about 5% probably, you know, about 5.5%. But I think you know, and Stephen you pointed this out kind of following my comment was like energy and food is a whole nother

story which is what

actually hits. I think most families in the pocketbooks and the question is you know, Let's let's say we have reached even peak inflation like is this going to be some quick drop down to 2%. I find that really hard to believe, I think it's gonna be this long sloping thing back down to 2% if we can get there within a reasonable time period. And so does the Fed bring more pain you know to to get it down that 2% and and see where we where we go from there. Um I'm curious like eric you know what what are your thoughts on like

what I'm afraid of because I think we're all like we have a bunch of new listeners after the the bank list episode, right? And they probably look at us and they're like holy sh it these guys are bearish and like we're not like we actually see the long term bullish thesis and all this stuff right? Like it's very obvious and and I think we're just playing it in this narrow time frame because we see how much macro is driving Everything right now. So we're talking about macro, we're talking about basically the Fed and monetary policy and you know to Nick's point, it's like they're responding to inflation and you know what what inflation level comes out. You know, it remains to be seen. But like one thing that I'm afraid of is that in in 2018 uh Fed pivoted monetary policy very quickly. They saw the credit market break, it was like I believe in the repo market and then they completely pivoted and then you saw like a V shaped recovery in markets. I don't think that that's gonna happen but I am worried that we are like ultra bearish on on an industry that we are incredibly long term bullish on and then we see like this massive pivot and and that's that's sort of what keeps me up at night right now because we we have positioned ourselves in in in like a way that is safe and is prepared for further drawdowns. But I don't know if we're prepared for like the freaking rip up.

Yeah I mean eric I'm glad you pointed that out because like we are certainly long term bullish and the reason I'm being cautious because I'm fucking greedy like I want to buy more lower and it looks like you know from everything from macro market and even if you know you play a little technical analysis like we could certainly go lower. Um You know I'm looking for that opportunity to to buy more. I think a lot of people are like the whole game is like you know are we at the bottom so we can acquire more. Um I'm curious about like um stevens take on the quantitative tightening part because um you mentioned on twitter that happy Q. T. Day which is this is the official start of the fed doing quantitative tightening and that's where I get a little confused.

Let me give my take on this bottom this really quick and then let's shift to quantitative tightening and then and put a You know our 15th. Um the question of is this a bottom to me is already a fascinating

question, everybody

invests for a different purpose and has a different goal. My long term sort of, let's just call it the big picture goal here is freedom. And in the short term it's how do I sleep better at night? And so the question of like,

is this

a bottom to me, fundamentally for a type of investor like me is a flawed question because what it does is it forces you to behave stupidly, You start to make poor decisions if I'm asking myself what is the bottom? The only reason I'm asking myself that is because I'm trading the asset in the first place and people like me or just speaking for myself. And I think a lot of people, I represent a lot of

people. If you

have high conviction if you fundamentally believe in this asset,

there

really is no reason to sell in the first place. Because what are you doing? You're trying to make arbitrary, well, they could be fundamentally life changing gains. Like somebody out there, one out of 100 people is going to do what you just said, nick and is going to strike gold is gonna win, They're gonna time it perfectly. But the data doesn't show

that it

shows that fundamentally people that trade lose against the market.

Like

how many books do I have to fucking read to understand that I can't outsmart the market psychology of money. It doesn't matter what it's about, whether it's real estate or stocks or crypto these are the lessons that I have learned the hard way over and over and over again. So and I'm not putting it, I'm not saying I completely disagree with you guys, I'm not saying I disagree with people to behave this way, but I think it's a game and you guys want to play a game and we and I don't point this out often enough. So maybe it's a good opportunity to point it out if you enjoy playing this game, if you like a little bit of gambling, if you like a little bit of fun and you're willing to bet like that because you want a little bit of an edge by all means go for it. You think you have some advantage, you've done the technical analysis, you've done the homework. You understand. I mean you're someone like Stephen you understand what you're doing by all means go for

it.

But the average to even above average to sophisticate many even sophisticated investors, why would they do such a thing for an asset that they have high

conviction. I mean, I'm with you on this like in fact I haven't sold any Bitcoin any eat any of the things that I like believe long term, I've just gone through that period of seeing everything go down, get marked down in excel. You're a lot poor and that's not a fun thing to go through and

getting at the opposite problem as well. It's the can I watch,

can

I go through and withstand the volatility? So the only other reason to ask yourself is this a bottom is not because I want to, it's to accumulate,

right? It's accumulate, but also like I think I've tried to learn and the journey has come along talking to you guys, I've learned a lot talking to you guys about like what can I do to possibly, you know, hedge this this down downfall that I see might be happening and I don't want to sell because like I I am not gonna predict everything correctly, but like maybe with 1% of my portfolio I can hedge in the leverage maybe, but like along the process I do want to learn about this and I'm probably gonna make some big mistakes, you know, like and and you know when you're playing with puts, when you're playing with shorts, especially leverage shorts, like there are certainly a possibility to like evaporate your money. So like I only advise playing like I'm playing with 1% you know, and and steven has definitely taken a more active role because well that's his like, you know, main time gig. And so I'm trying to play the long term role but just trying to learn a little bit and I think eric's you know, kind of like on this path as well, like, well you don't have to watch it go all the way down, you can try to hedge on the way up and you know, we may make some mistakes along the way.

Absolutely. And look, the only other reason someone's asking is this the bottom is because am I buying, am I backing up the truck? And and and another way to in the short term sleep better at night and in the long term to have more freedom, which is personally my goal, sleep better at night, have more freedom, have more freedom. Have more passive income, have a larger portfolio that I can live off is to D. C. A. So like is 1800 the bottom or is 2100 or is 800 who cares, I'm buying all the way through consistently. So I think for some listeners that is probably going to feel better and for others, like we'll continue talking about the moves that we make. But I think it's important to hear that I think a better strategy for people, a better strategy slightly more who want to do a little more than just sort of blindly D. C. A. Is that instead of thinking about where the bottom is

think

about when the next top might be right because then you're sort of optimizing for I'm going to buy, I'm gonna hold for longer than a year and then I'm going to sort of aggressively take profits when I'm in cap games mode right? Because you're gonna gain like a pretty big edge. Like if you're if you're if you're like okay I want to go in and out a little bit which I think is a good strategy if you want to go slightly more advanced because these things go up and down so much that there's like actually a huge edge and just not huddling forever. Like if you have the ability to do that, obviously it's a bit of a bar but if you have like a little bit to commit to it, I think thinking about where the next cycle top might be is probably a little more valuable than where how do

I tangibly use that. So let's say I think the market cycle next top is gonna be in 2024. Like how do I actually tangibly use that. Well

if you think the next stop is it gonna be until like 2024 then a good strategy might be able to start D. C. A. Now. You wanna like try to plan in getting most of your like there are things you can use that are somewhat Dubious. Um to sort of have a vague idea of where where stuff might be six months from now, 12 months from now. Like like especially the more kind of like long time frame you go with stuff like like a moving average right? Like the running average of price. Like if you try to trade on like the one minute chart right, you're just gonna get wrecked. That's like the domain of like high frequency traders and scalpers, right? But if you're a long term investor and you're looking at the price of ethereum on like a 300 week moving average, right,

you don't

necessarily have this like high bar for like crazy like trader acumen to be like, this is kind of a cheap price for when it gets around here. It's, it's probabilistic lee speaking, going to be a good price to buy in, right? And so you start kind of being like, okay, like for me,

like

around this level like 17 or so is where I'm like okay, I'm nibbling off some like I personally think it's gonna break lower, but like I'm I'm nibbling off there because I think it's getting to the point where I'm looking three months ahead and I'm like okay, like if it stays for this level for three months and three months from now, this is gonna be like a really attractive price. And then if I sell like a year, year and a half later, that's probably where we're gonna be maybe going into some more parabolic action and now I get to like just harvest cap gains, right? And it keeps your trades on this. Like I'm holding for a minimum of a year mindset and it prevents you from going in and out or doing anything stupid.

Well, I'm giggling over here. I don't know if you guys remember on the bank last episode we did, I mention the 200 week moving average and you kind of shifted on its side is a little meme and like I did, you did that was that was what I'm saying,

but

like it's a shrewd advice, right? It's like a safe or play. You may not be the bottom.

So there's there there's some context to this, right? A the 200 moving average for each has never been anything like it just went through that ship, like hot,

right through

butter. So it doesn't mean a lot for each, it has meant a lot for Bitcoin and I think it's like an okay thing to anchor yourself to what I am scared of is people being like, It always bounces off the 200 so I'm gonna go all in their leverage. There's no reason that has to continue. But I do think that like as a general example, looking at longer term stuff to be like To roughly say like, Okay, I should buy a little more every week when I'm nearly 200 and a little less or nothing every week when I'm

way

up and above it, right? Because that's that's fine. But again, for most people, I don't like for you Arman

a

nonprofessional, an aficionado of the space. I don't think you should look at any of this. Like you should go, you should do the warren buffet thing, right? You should you should just sort of by the index and go back to work and earn more money. Well no, not that I know he has a good statement about he has a good statement about trading the S. And P. And stocks and he's just like you you should just do another job, make more money and use it to buy the index because you're going to be spending this time to beat the market and you probably won't and you should just bought the index and then all that anyway.

We're

All going to be we're all gonna be pretty happy buying at you know today's 1800 in 24 months plus like this, this

is a good

regardless of what we're talking about. Still a good level

and I mean what a freaking blessing. We had a little macro dump before the merge. Like it is uh it's it's almost time to get greedy. We're not we're not there.

You

don't have to get into

that

quantitative tightening

like do you want to Let's

talk guns? Let's talk guns. Let's

alright, alright, alright,

quantitative tightening, google it. Okay, listen to the podcast, we're here to tell you what to google. Yeah look eric um Maybe you can not necessarily tee it up but just just begin with any generals. Can we talk about our dinner last week after the podcast

where we're

having a great time

and

then, you know, I'm I'm upset. Eric called me a lot of bad.

It's

called me. He called me, he called me the R. Word. What a lot of times. What's the R. Word it? I don't want somebody get mad.

She

might be, she might be

really smart.

Uh Discord was like, uh God, what was there? What was their guest? Did you see that

what the R. Word

was? Yeah,

man. And and in classic David fashion, he immediately starts moderating the discussion. So we're sitting around a table over a steak dinner, Armando having like a little sidebar about about like a business we're working on and these guys are absolutely just yelling at the top of their lungs.

No,

no, no. Nearby

tables even on this one he was being yelled at.

Yeah,

I'm guilty of the yelling. I was yelling

eric's credit the next day. He was like, yeah, my bad. Uh one of one of the dishes. It right, Stephen dishes, It basically disagrees with everything most, most of the punching bag and yet takes it quite well. Good, sir. You

stay pretty rational, calm in the heat of the argument.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but yeah, like David had to moderate a little bit of uh

okay, so what were we talking about? We're talking about? Guns. We were talking about the shooting. It was like the day after actually, Maybe this was all the shooting, right? That that was the one yeah, we have to even call it which one now at this point, that's I mean that that basically tells us what we need to know, but but look um

yeah

let's let's give it to eric here, like just some general sentiment here of like how you felt that day, maybe how you feel now and and then we'll kind of open a discussion.

Yeah, so I think this is my third conversation now since that moment where I was yelling at steven across the table, so I hopefully can main race. Sorry, steven again, sorry, everybody. Um I think like where I'm at, I wanna I wanna talk about how I feel about it and then I want to talk about like why I feel about how I frame that decision making and then I'll pass it over to you guys, but like how I feel about it is like, I don't I don't own any guns, but I do believe in the right to own them. Um and the reason why I believe in the right to own them is is maybe different than a lot of other people's like some people are hunting or protecting themselves, like what I'm into is is protecting against this like really rare um Sort of like four standard deviation case where the where the government starts to impose themselves too hard on its own citizens to a point where it's like, oh my God, they're they're actually like getting violent against us and now we have now we have some recourse like and and I think Armen we were talking about this a little bit of the table like maybe in a moment of sanctity for me but like you you mentioned that like this has happened more times than we really give it credit like in a lot of different countries and a lot of different civilizations like the government, its own government has come down on its own people and like the fact that we have guns is very important now now the way that I want to frame so that's how I feel. The way I want to frame that decision making is that like I'm not blind, I am, I am empathetic to the fact that like we are paying a cost every day to maintain this security against this like forced an aviation rare event blacktail like black swan like long tail event like there is a cost day to day like even just today we saw another event like in Oklahoma Hospital there was five people murdered in a shooting. I didn't even really get too deep into it. But like every day there are events and these are the costs and I don't want to like throw them as statistics because they're like they're actual human lives and like I recognize that we are paying actual cost in terms of lives for a perceived potential threat that is very low probability uh here in the United States particularly. Um Because like you would say like, oh well other countries, You know that that's them. But like here in the United States it wouldn't happen here, but it's like maybe it wouldn't happen because we have freaking guns. Um And and that's like where I want to frame it is like so you have this like you have this threat existential that like um is not yet construed but is but it is a potential threat and you wanna protect against that. And in the in the immediate term you're paying an actual cost. So like where I'm at is like how do we mitigate the actual cost?

And I think those comes out like that comes out in like multiple themes right? Like mitigating the actual cost comes out in themes. And one theme is like, well what about like mental health. And then another theme is like, well what about restricting access? And another theme is like, well what about uh you know like what about like changing the type of weapon? And these are like these are like different parties. Talk about these three different themes on mitigating the actual cost. And I think that's like a real conversation to have and I don't know what the right answer is on how to mitigate, but I do think that mitigating the actual cost while still maintaining the security against this real potential threat is probably what we should be talking about?

Have a question. I have a question. Um, what what would you say that I said that triggered you so

much? Because

I don't even remember what I said

because everything

you said sounds kind of reasonable. I don't disagree with anything,

so I don't want to trigger

Stephen

and this is actually a better side.

I'm not triggered,

I will get triggered

as all the triggered. Say

I brought this up at the dinner table and you guys all disagreed with me, but steven has a knack of um taking the conversation away from its intended into a technicality. And what happened in our conversation is that in our technicality, I said that a R. Fifteens are more lethal than pistols and Stephen came at me with a stat that says pistols kill more people than air 15, so therefore more lethal. But what I was trying to say is that like,

you know what's fascinating about that

15 is higher and I don't really want to get into that, right? But that's where we, that's where we like got

to know before we get before we get

first of all what's what's

fascinating about just that right there is that they're both right? And so let's just zoom out for one thinks one of us is more right than the other maybe. And we can debate that and fight in the messy gray of the middle. And I think that's like what I'm trying to point out this topic reminds me so much of abortion,

one

of the most complex topics in existence. I I think that fundamentally like guns are also a topic that relates to life, right? People are dying, abortion. Uh, you know, fetuses, babies are dying. Like it's a, it's a similar topic. And obviously that brings out an incredible amount of emotion and an incredible amount of identity and partisan politics. Okay, so that's what's fascinating about this now. Look, I just want to kind of like more grandiose big picture set a couple of things. And of course yes, you can follow up nick. Look, I'm not an expert on any of this. I have certain like my own ideas and sentiments and I think that like steven and nick have some very interesting data through the years that they've come across that they'll share. And even things today, I know you were looking at Stephen for example, that you'll share.

But here's something that's very important about this topic. Just like the abortion topic, the number of layers that exist

here

and how you begin to piece these together

is

incredibly difficult. Let's just look at a couple of these layers. One, you have a country, the United States of America where most of this is happening, where mass murders are happening, where people are being killed by gunfire, whether it's gang related or not. Sometimes I'm

like

Stephen's doing the technicality thing by the I can't even get. So you have this country that was founded by people that were persecuted, persecuted? You know, and you've seen this all around the world that genocide and ethnic cleansing and religious beliefs get in the way of societies, even societies that are extremely um homogeneous for example, like you you get the same effects. And so people often argue and they say like, well why does a country like Sweden or Finland not need guns, but you guys do. So we have this aspect, just one layer here that we're driving where you have this country that was founded because of persecution because of beliefs that they had that were different from the state, from the country that they lived in and they had to leave, they had to go create a new society. And one of the first beliefs and one of the first principles that they laid into their documents was the right to bear arms. And the reason for that was because that they believed that the moment that the government stopped fearing its people, there was enough power that overtook those people. But then at the same time, hundreds of years have gone by and the gun technology has evolved. Now you have semi automatic weapons to eric's point where people can walk into a fucking school that are psychotic and kill Children, Children are dying because of the technological advances that have happened with weapons? And so then it becomes well, what are the guns that should be available at all in the first place? And if we are needing to take guns away from the people, are we exchanging freedom? Are we exchanging security for liberty?

And who should be in charge of that security?

This is

why this topic in general is so challenging. And then you have basically an identity game where you have on one side, people saying, okay, we're not heartless. Like we care about the fact that people are dying, Children are dying. Even people are dying in game related like wars and fights. And at the same time we can't exchange this liberty and there's a different way to solve that problem. But on the other side, it's like, well, you're a heartless bigot and you care more about owning your guns than you do about people's lives. And that is not a conversation. There's no conversation happening there and the conversation is where we meet in the middle. We actually look at the nuance of these issues and we say like maybe both of these are necessary. And there's a

way Yeah. And you kind of framed it up really well, why this discussion is really hard to have. And there's another reason why I think this discussion is difficult to have because we have to ask ourselves what questions are we asking? What problem are we trying to solve? And always, you know, when looking at the problem. You know, I try to tell myself, you know, ask better questions, get better answers and so we have to ask ourselves, what are we trying to solve for? Are we solving for less homicide? Less homicide by guns? Because if you look at all gun deaths, most more than half of them come from

suicide.

More more deaths from guns come from suicide than homicide. Okay, then you take it to the next step further. Are we looking for less homicide by guns in mass shootings? That's a very that's a that's a much more specific question and a much more specific problem we're solving and if we're trying to solve for less homicide then you have to bring up the cold statistic that mass shootings are are a very low percentage I think in in the best case you're looking at 2.5% of all gun deaths,

low percent compared to shootings in this country. But when the rest of the world looks at this, they're like you crazy motherfucker's it's far it's far,

it is far lower. I I took, I took the data that showed it at the highest percentage. So mass shootings the data that was most generous in terms of like what is the biggest problem show that they're 2.5% of all gun deaths and you can take that that question even further and more specific are we trying to side, you know, solve for less homicide by guns and mass shootings using a semi automatic rifle and I think it's important to define what semiautomatic is, it means you pull the trigger the bullet fires and automatically loads. And I don't know if most people know this, but like an Armalite 15 does that and a ar 15 does that, but so does a handgun so they don't actually fire at a more rapid pace and so you know, you know, I'm not trying to like make a specific point, just

something very important that the question nobody is even asking a question

before

they have the argument. If there's complete talking past one another,

if you turn

on the news, if you have a conversation with a friend, the only conversation is you're a heartless fucker who just wants to protect the Second Amendment and the other person is like, well you're an idiot, you're you're not even asking the right question. And but the reality is like there is well that's not quite the argument, but the reality is that is the question. What are we solving for? What, what are we solving for actually, are we are we solving for less murder overall? And how do you even take that? Because it's pieces of different types of murder that are occurring? What I mean, I mean I ask you guys what are we solving

for? I mean if you look at mainstream, I think it depends on where you're looking like if you look at mainstream media, if you look at you know um what talking political heads say we're trying to solve for this thing that just like hurts us in our hearts. You know, seeing mass shootings of like, you know at schools, um you know, it hits us different and then you can look at the data like we just talked about it. Like more homicides come from From handguns than Armalite 15s. You know, there are more suicides that come from guns than than than homicides. And so you look at that data,

we want to prevent the most tragic murders first. Maybe

it does have this

like this

thing that that hits you harder and it makes you pull this part of your brain in which you know, you you don't care about the data. But I I think that as a political person in power, you have to take a step back and I would like to think that you would have a rational political actor and would say, okay, we understand this is a problem. This is a travesty. But like what problem? I wish they would set the conversation

for with that. That like you don't want to solve the problem of like generally just like guns are bad, You know, in general, because that's very extreme before you solve the problem of like someone being able to walk into a school and kill 19 Children. Like that's the first. Can we talk about that though? Because yes, there's no way to solve the problem of somebody walking into a school And killing 19 Children unless you are going to like arm a bunch of people in the school and have all the security measures what you could do, right? But we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that the only reason all these kids are dead is because like guns exist, right? I think it's like a more nuanced thing. Like if somebody really wanted to go on a spree and kill people right and to kill kids and all guns were gone, they could do it with a car like they did and they could make a bust, right? Like a lot of terrible things that, that could be done. Um, and this isn't to say that we shouldn't do anything. I'm just saying that like

I'm

trying to meet people halfway on this issue. Like my, my biggest problem with this whole thing. Um, you related this to, to the abortion issue and I think there's like a lot of strong parallels to it, right? Like one of my main problems with the abortion issue in particular and I actually see this as like a thing and a lot of issues and, and, and I am going to lay blame on one specific side here. I feel like the left in this country does not do good enough job of actually understanding the beliefs and pain points and perspectives of people on the right. There's a tendency to just be like these people are dumb racist, gun loving childhood ng idiots and fuck them and we're just gonna do whatever we can because like, you know, and, and I don't own any guns, but I come from like a gun owning household and like a rural area and I'm like very in tune to why people have guns, right? And the people on the left when they talk about guns, it's like I understand why people on the right are basically like screw you guys. Like, and that's interpreted as like you don't care about kids, but the reality is like we don't actually trust you and your intentions because like what you're saying is like patently ridiculous, right? Ergo you must have like ulterior motives and they're like the trust in the government is already at all time lows. Anyway, so you pair those two things together and it's obvious to understand like why people reflexively react to this, right? Like this, this push to ban, quote unquote assault weapons, whatever the funk that means, right? Like it's, it's just such a, it's like, it's like the essence of this term that was just made up to conjure motion people.

That doesn't really, it basically just means scary looking gun, right? It's just, it's like a, it's like a rifle that has like cosmetic things that make it sort of look like a machine. It's, it's, it's a silly, it's a silly descriptor, right? It's, it's, it's obviously made to like conjure up an emotional response, right? And if you look at the stats right, sort of dispassionately, oh, your goal is to

prevent deaths.

Well, okay, like I think in the recent FBI stats, like 400 people were killed with rifles and Like 20 times that number were killed with handguns 20 times.

So I saw that number, and my next question was like, well how many handguns are out there? And how many, you know, rifles

around

and what did you find? I found that there actually

are the same, the same amount of pistols. So the deaths per capita of gun and the deaths total

are

way higher. Hold on. Like first there's cost and then there's the fact that like walking into someplace, especially if you're in a gang, like having, having a handgun like on your back or like under your jacket or in your pants is a lot easier than carrying around a rifle you're carrying a rifle. Just arguing for my point. Yeah, but but I just want to distinguish that, like I think it's very important. I mean this gets into our the argument me and eric got over at dinner, he was basically like equating lethality to like this thing and clearly is designed to kill people better. And I was like lethality also has a component of like covert nous to it, right? Like you can't walk around with a freaking rifle and not have people notice that you have a rifle, you can walk into a school of freaking six pistols strapped into you and nobody would know, right? There's an element of that that makes that thing more lethal. There's a reason why we have this like distinction in the law of like concealed carry. Like there's an acknowledgement that the fact that you're really driving out this idea that like if you're trying to solve the problem of murders, then banning this thing that we've titled these assault rifles, these assault weapons is actually not getting to the root of the problem. No, it's not.

And like people on the right aren't stupid. They're like, okay, what's your motive? And like I remember the last election, like Beto O'Rourke right finally slipped and came out and said like hell you were coming for your and that's what everybody on the right believes they believe. They just want to take everybody's guns. And that is what people on the left belief, because if you really want to solve people dying, you're not gonna confiscate this like symbolic gun that kills 300 400. Like literally more people are killed per year by blunt objects and by like hands and fists than rifles, right? Like it's it's so you're obviously not optimizing for saving lives. You're either optimizing for emotion, which I think is worth optimizing for to a degree, right? I don't, I don't totally discount that. It is horrible on the nation's psyche when you see kids killed and they shouldn't just be like raw numbers, right? So I don't say that that's not a good thing to do, right? But like, I think people on the left should just be honest.

They should just be like, yes, we want to ban all guns. Let's have that debate Instead. What they're trying to do is have this discussion where they're like, oh no, we don't want to ban all guns. We just want to ban these weapons of war that are obviously killing everybody. And then anybody with a brain just looks at the numbers and looks at what's going on there. Like fuck, you know, you don't like, I don't trust you, I don't trust anything you're doing. So I am going to react against everything you do. And it's no wonder that like nothing gets done because the left, especially as being incredibly dishonest about their intentions. I think the right is probably a little naive and a little too into guns. Like I, I do think guns generally general center the guns are very symbolic, overly symbolic. But then, you know, like eric you and I were talking about, I mean, and and I have not really truly dug into this, but most genocides that have taken place in the world in the last 100 years took place after guns were taken away from their civilians from, from society in general. Uh, most of them within a year or two, some of them like, you know, a decade later, but everything from cambodia to fucking I mean, everything paul pot everything that has taken place over the last, basically 100 years fell into that camp.

And, like, that tells you a lot in general, that when you give up that feeling

of

security to your country, to your to your politicians, to your government and you trust them to take care of you. Ultimately, we we've talked about so many times on the podcast, the more power you give up it is a one way road. And that's one of those things that I think for good reason. Again, I'm not uh, you know, we we don't we don't know how much we need to preface this. I'm not like some republican, and I'm not some democrat either. Like, no, because it's so easy for people to go, oh, he's starting to sound like a, like a democrat, or you're starting to sound like a republican. Someone new to this is like, which one is it? It's it's it's neither. And it's both in so many ways where I land on the issue, ultimately, is

like, when

I see some of the comments on instagram and youtube and social media, it tells me everything. I need to know when you see the case happened in the first place, you watch the debate, it just ensues it erupts, right? And all of a sudden it becomes one side saying, you know, it's never about, like, the fundamental problem of the person and you know, oh that's your scapegoating this issue by talking about the person in mental illness, but like are we really should we not really be considering the fact that like a percentage of society is completely psychotic, like just clinically insane and that we can't predict what they're going to do. Like that is something we should be looking at and discussing. Is it is it not for

sure? I think like I definitely have a left field idea on it at some point, but like, you know, if I listen this conversation and I'm trying to take the red team on this and I'm trying to look, you know, like, okay, steven to your point um you know, hand guns do kill a lot of people. They kill more people than rifles. So I hear this argument a lot. I don't know if I have like a good counter to it. I just like been observing it. Is that why not take away all the guns look what Australia did. They took away all the guns

amendment, It's like a non starter. Yeah,

exactly. So you know, assuming, I don't think it's actually practical at all. It's like against the constitution, but like but but so is there an argument outside of it's not practical that like, you know, why don't we just take away all the I don't believe this, but like what if we just take away all the

guns in Australia around taking away all the guns, right? And this is important to understand about this country, this country, unlike

any

other country in the world I can think of right is founded from the idea that your rights as a human are just bestowed upon you as birth, their natural right. They're not granted to you by government and government is instituted to protect those rights or to protect other people from you stripping them of those rights. And this is like a really important thing for people to understand because this isn't something as far as I'm aware that exists like anywhere in europe or it certainly doesn't exist in Canada. I don't know who else has this thing, right? Yeah, they they banned handguns. I need to honestly not surprising giving, given what we saw during the, you know, the whole Bitcoin trucker thing, but you know, we don't have to get into Yeah, there's this idea that you are born with this right to

be able to

protect yourself and your family by sort of any means

necessary.

We can argue about what the limitations are on that, but certainly like having a pistol, especially if you're like a small woman for example, like what other way can you really neutralize

a

large attacker than by being good with guns like from that perspective like that's you can see why if you are taking that right away from somebody like that, you're basically saying you no longer have the right to live and survive, that you were born with, that's right. We give you and now the government will be there to give that to you. But anybody, it's really funny, like when all the BLM riots and everything happened during, like, peak Covid, I suddenly saw a lot of people around me being like, oh, do you have a gun? How do I, how do I get a gun? Everybody lives in this like state that they think the world is this calm, peaceful place. But like, the, like, the truth is like, the hard truth is that the entire world, like, really does exist at all times, like, on the, on the edge of, on the edge of chaos, right? And that's not just in like a nuclear war sense. Like,

I

don't know, there could be some like meth head on crack downstairs right now and like, he's just lost his mind, he broke into this building and like, he has a gun, right? Is it something make up whatever scenario you want in all of those scenarios, by the time you call the police and they respond,

you're

done in California, particularly san Francisco for that. Yeah. Right. So like, nobody coming when people really are faced with that reality that, like, actually nobody is going to come to save them. And a lot of the policing and laws we have, are there largely preventative reactionary when something happens and you realize that you're just actually on your own, especially if you have a family, you got kids, you got a wife and you're just like, well, I guess I just have a golf club or a baseball bat. I think a lot of people when they realize that and they realize like how little the police are actually there to come and save you, they do have this aha moment like we saw during those riots where they're like, it's the reason we saw gun ownership go through the roof, right? And I think in a society where we had higher trust of each other, higher trust of institutions, we, we can have lower aggregate gun ownership, but I don't see how we can get to that particular equilibrium given the state of society. So I think that we have to probably pursue other solutions that are going to be like a little bit of a compromise between the two sides because neither side, especially the lefties, are going to get their wish. Like they're not gonna just eradicate the Second Amendment. Can

we talk a little bit about solutions? Like, I mean, there are some like,

I'm curious of solutions, but I was just also curious what you guys would guess are the causes

like,

what's really going on here?

I mean,

you're, you're

alluding to more than just like guns being the purpose that we're

seeing.

I mean, I'll throw out my kind of left left field, you know, solution.

I'm genuinely curious man, like why, why this country like sure it happens around the world, but ensure there are, you know, we are one of the biggest countries in the world, but like why, why so much, why so frequently? Why so tragically and and and horrifically

yeah, I mean

like, like fucking school kids, like why, why did they, why does that happen?

We can, we can get into like other solutions like background checks and things like that in a second, but like, and this is a very much half baked argument. Like, I, I don't know if I fully subscribe to this. Yeah, like, and I need you guys to kind of like help me either build this argument or like take it down. But you know, you look at a lot of these perpetrators, they are young men of adolescent to young young age and they, they all seem to be troubled to some to some aspect and I kind of bring it back to like somewhat of broken homes, you know, like, I think most of us were lucky enough to grow up when with a mother and father in the home and I think that um, you know, provides stability. Um, it provides somewhat economic stability, it provides some moral stability, It provides like guidance, you know, as you're kind of like formulating your worldview as a young adolescent. Okay, so now this is where this gets a little bit of a stretch. Okay, so like I do think there are some um welfare and child support programs that incentivize follows homes. So there are, You know, if you look at like when the war on poverty started started like 1960 for and you see, you know like the amount of like fatherless homes or single, like the number of single parents, there's

an incentive here

that it five X. S. And if you and now you know, there used to be like a few programs now there are dozens of programs and if you look at where that aid goes, it primarily goes to single parents. Um you know, that's where this money goes, it doesn't go, for example, if you have let's say a low income mother with a child in their home, if she happens to go married, marry a employed husband, then her her share of that like welfare and child support goes down. So I do think there is something to like we do have these like war on poverty programs that kind of incentivizes, you know, single parents to not um you know, basically combined households, there is like a financial incentive. That's

way too logical data, but you know, but I don't think it's strong, I think it's too narrow. I think what you are talking about fits under a larger umbrella of sort of this general like I want to use the Marianne, what was that Marianne Williamson quote the deep psychic trauma or that you've come out within a debate. But I think there's something to that. There's this general,

like,

crisis of however narrow it may be though, because I, I agree with this point and I would build, I would, I would, I think it's a good place to build from um however narrow it is, I think it's, it is a

factor,

it is a factor for sure. Among a massive number of factors that, for me, I think it's not just troubled people and kids. I think it's deeply fucking sick disturbed motherfucker's. I think if we're talking about these people as if they're normal were the problem, like that's how extreme I am on this issue. Like I really fundamentally of a person that wants to kill other people for pleasure, who've done absolutely nothing wrong to them is a sick human being, who, by the way, just exists in society and the fact that it doesn't happen more. He's actually, it's like a thank God thing he, he was posting videos on the Internet holding up bags full of dead cats, right? He was an actual psychopath. It's really worth, I think it is worth asking. Like, why can a kid like that at the age of 18, walk in and buy a gun? I think a lot of people on the right, use the argument like, oh, you can serve in the military when you're 18 ergo, you should be able to buy a gun. That to me is like a really dumb argument from the right like the barrier to going through the military going sure I I agree with that. If you go through the equivalent training and screening process of the military at the age of 18 you can get a gun.

Like I think as a default rule, you probably shouldn't be able to get a gun until you're like 21 or 25. What are the numbers? Right? I think there should be exceptions to that rule where you can argue to a particular board and like, like I know that people on the right hate the idea of having these checks or licenses because it opens up an avenue for the government who you don't trust in the first place to be like,

yeah,

we don't actually think

that we think

you're crazy, you can't buy a gun and you're like, but but I'm not crazy. They're like, no,

we think you're

crazy and so I understand where that's coming from, but we have like this sort of like due process of law all over the place in the world, right? Like

the police

can't come into the home right now and just bust down the store, but if they go through a process and get a warrant, they can, right? So we had a feeling we would go really deep and hard on this topic. So let's go solutions and and wrap it up like if we have any and maybe we revisit that. I think, I think solution very high level, right? No guns and like, I think at a young age yes, you, I think anybody can have a gun, but the bar you have to cross to get that gun is determined on like it's higher the younger you are right. I think everybody to have a gun probably needs to pass some sort of like training. There needs to be somebody who in that training can be like this guy seems a little off and like tip off a little red flag for you to go to further psychiatric evaluation, right? It's going to make guns more expensive because you're probably gonna have to initiate some tax to fund this, which I kind of hate, but it's a trade off. It's a compromise. I think it has to be done. We can't just have like, we obviously can't have like random disturbed 18 year olds or murdering cats. That guy passed a background check.

These young kids, they all pass background checks. They're too young to not pass a background check but their brains are disturbed and young and not developed and they're impulsive and like we can't give them like semi weapons of war without having it. It's, it's obviously, it's obviously like, what do you want? People like that man, either a, you know, get him off the black market or be passed that background check by being a fucking psycho by playing the character by just being like, no, I'm cool, I'm good. Let's go. But like you're going to reduce this kid if you took one social media, you'd be like, oh, dead cats in a bag. Not yes, I'm not arguing against. I mean California is not having some of the

most strictest

gun laws, please jump in. Please do

where I wanna like, I think we avoided the, what I think is the biggest point of this whole thing and I want to see if there is consensus at least among the four of us is like, do we even think that like gun ownership is necessary for the security against this? Like rare and like four standard deviation long tail case where like the government can turn against its citizens. I think that's actually the first step that we never across that. I

think that's the second step. First step is

revisited that one. I want to visit that and then and once we do then we can start to get into the nuance of like, okay, so if that is logical, then let's talk about mitigating the actual cost 1st. You know, like because because everything we've talked about is like about mitigating the actual cost in terms of like lives lost today, in reality for this uh potential use case, but we haven't really like discussed that one. Like, do you

guys believe

in that? I

don't disagree with you. I think it's the secondary use case. I think the primary use case is that you as an individual born into the world in the wild with your family and yourself have a right to defend yourself and your family. But I do totally agree with the idea that like government generally speaking grows accumulates power and then oftentimes seeks to oppress its citizens and like if you look through history over and over again, the very first thing a lot of these tyrannical people do to confiscate all the guns, right? And a lot of people during covid right get Australia being like ah gave up their guns now they're an internment camp. See and like I get that would never happen here. So

what I want, what I want to say is that like the framing of this whole conversation and the reason why I bring this up because I had this conversation, my fiance on on freaking drive over to Wyoming and it was cordial and whatever but like it showed the the difference and and uh Mina is like very clear that she doesn't want guns and I'm and I'm very clear that like well you know, governments can turn against their people look at where you're from. Like she's born in Iran and the Ayatollah has its thumb on the populist and it's pressing harder and harder harder and they are not allowed to have guns and I'm like what

are they, what are they allowed to have

nothing? Like, you know, like the government presses hard on her. And I'm just thinking like, you don't see this. And and she said she's like, okay, well that's a good framing. But we are paying a cost in the interim. And I'm like, yes, we are. And that cost is not just dollars, that cost is lives. And that's not to be downplayed. And and then what we got to is that she she believes that the the actual cost today is higher than the potential cost of where the potential could go if the government turns against people. And I think that's actually a fair conversation like that. I mean,

in terms of like actual probabilities, it's probably like a positive E v like, you know, maybe in a short time run, but over a longer time period,

I think that I have, but

millions of people usually end up.

Exactly. And I do think there's a huge recency bias, like we did see, uh, you know, like eight year olds get killed. And in the United States, we haven't seen this government turn against its people. So we're like, oh, well, that would never happen until it does. And you're like, oh, wait, we need guns. You know, like, okay,

but what, what you're talking about is the central trade off between the west and like china, right? It is a question of optimizing for the collective versus optimizing for the individual when you optimize for the collective in aggregate, you have less of this, you have less of this, you have less of this. The trade off is that you as an individual who wants to make their own decisions and have freedom in their own autonomy, pay the price, right? I'm not saying one of these things is inherently good or inherently bad, it's probably some shade of gray in between obviously Eileen individualistic, but that that is the trade off. Do you optimize for the collective good or the individual? Here's here's another simple frame. It's like how many times has there been a society that has given up its arms and things have gone to ship many? How many times has a society,

you know,

giving up its arms and gotten them back? Never Like when does and and in order to do so it's not even a question of getting the arms back. It's a question of getting out of the thumb on top of them because they're living in a tyrannical society, what does that take to get out of a complete bloody millions of people dying civil war?

So I mean

there's only one way out,

let's say we all agree on on that part. And then to your point, eric was like, well how do we decrease the cost? Like so if we accept that as like how do we decrease the cost? And I'll kind of rattle down my like quick, you know, solutions are like potential things and maybe you guys can go to and we can wrap it up,

let's do it and go to jerking

off ship.

Alright, just literally go from next.

So

so there are jesus,

that's what I was hoping for was kind of wake you up, eric eric is gonna absolutely no blood in your penis and then all of a sudden it was just like, whoa, jimmy,

okay, alright, eric's gonna go penance for selling his his optimism coin. We're gonna do a lot more penance for this discussion we're having and what's gonna happen after this. Um I mean like listen, uh background checks exist in this country, but there are very clear loopholes and I think most gun owners agree with this. So 22% of gun owners bought their most recent gun without a background check, 80% of firearms acquired for criminal purposes use those loopholes. And so if you look at the background, the national federal background check laws, they require licensed sellers and that is a fairly restrictive term and what falls under license sellers. So there are gun expose their, their private sellers there even this term of like casual private sellers, like I occasionally sell guns to the public and and and you know, for personal use, but I'm not, you know, a gun store. And so with that, you know, there there are these these loopholes that we can very easily close to take care of and we're not talking about the mentally ill. We're talking about the people who have a criminal record. All right. So that's one I think that that that's part of it. And Stephen mentioned, you know, in terms of like red, you mentioned red flags, well there are red flag laws and I think they should be more integrated into schools. Like schools should have it part of like, I don't know, teacher training potentially to say like how, how to use the red flag laws, how to identify someone who potentially should be put on this red flag list, which means, you know, maybe authorities take a look and they are not able to to um, you know, purchase a gun and there's all kinds of like false positive arguments against that.

But let's just say like that could do well, you know, the community around that person is probably the best even their family members to, to to gauge where that person is a red flag law. Now there's another part which I'm kind of like on the border of but like my, my professional background is in ad serving technology and I've found that ad serving technology is incredibly good about finding what people are about to do. They know they're about to buy a car. They know if they're about to have a baby and everyone has experienced that thing where an AD gets shown is like how the hell did they know I was going to purchase that And I've even worked with a nonprofit where we found a way to tell if people are going to be what we phrased jihadist in tenders based upon their search fall and we worked on nonprofit

called target

that you can if if someone is searching for, how do I get

to go to the White House to speak on that? Like

no, no the no the the non profit went to the White House to speak on this. I

I love this angle by the way, I've never heard this before.

Okay, so so you know like a jihadist and tender, you might like look at a search like how do I get to Syria? You know that would be like we're gonna put them in the potential jihadist in tender and there are ways to do this and we can prove this through like commercial beings and we've all experienced something personally. So what I'm saying is that ad technology companies

particularly

google facebook, there's probably a few others can probably tell that someone is intending, you know, down this path. And like I really don't like the idea of like even giving technology companies the idea even like potentially suggests someone to get on a red flag law. I'm just saying that like technology kinda exists to predict what people will do and there's a whole massive multibillion dollar economy built around that technology, you know, being accurate. So like is there a way to integrate that? I don't know. That's like um politically and socially like palatable, but like I think that the raw technology does exist. Um so, and then

I agree with,

Yeah, it is scary. But anyway, I do agree with you on the 21 or older thing too. I'm kind of like that, that makes sense. So I don't know those are my three things. Like I think like most people can agree them on the technology part kind of scary. But a potential

solutions quick ones. You don't have to have one. I'm generally, I'm generally on this, the Spider man line like with great power comes great responsibility. Like when you have a gun you have the power to take away multiple human lives within a little little flick of your finger. Right? And yes, that maybe inherent to you

for

quote unquote defense, right? But there has to be an acknowledgement that that power can be used for evil and that like we have to find some balance of granting you that power. But acknowledging the limitations of it, I don't think it's unreasonable to increase the age of ownership or at least increase barriers with younger age, right? And I don't think it's like particularly obtrusive. Two have some sort of like certification program that people have to go to. I understand that it's going to be like expensive, but like this country is like very rich and guns aren't really that

expensive to

be honest. Right? So I think some combination of like a tax on guns. Plus maybe like a public subsidy to it would be a good compromise because gun owners are paying a little bit and then also the non gun owners are paying a little bit too to kind of like make that happen, right? And then there has to be due process around that, right? Like there can't just be one bureaucracy that can ban you from getting a gun where there's no appeal. It has to be similar to the same process that has the ability to like put you in jail and lock you away for life, right? We do have a process for doing that much more severe than you owning or not owning a gun, right? So I think we can take some elements of the regular judicial process, put it towards the gun thing. We can incorporate some of the red flag stuff. Nick check like people should Yeah, like people should in society at some point be able to at least like tag you like

just

In case there's a little tag, right? So at least people look into it. It's it's mildly dystopian, but it's also very dystopian to just have 18 year olds walking into schools and shooting up elementary kids right? Like, like everything's dystopian everywhere. We're gonna find some middle ground to make it on average like a little less dystopian. And like I said earlier, people on the left have to speak to people on the right better. They have to stop making these pure arguments from like emotion. They have to like argue for the actual thing that they want say what they actually want because people aren't stupid and they should like learn a little bit more about guns, right? Like I'm guessing if you pulled 50% of people who want like gun bans, they probably think the A. R. And R. 15 stands for assault rifle, right?

So it's very hard for gun owners to like look at these people and be like, oh you want to regulate me and you don't know, you don't know shit about like what it means to have a gun owner gun or anything, right? I get the frustration from the right, right? So that's that's my rant. C. F. A.

So everybody here made great points today why um pistol ownership and a ar 15 ownership are both very dangerous. And I think like it doesn't even make sense to compare the two anymore. Like I I've stepped off my pedestal on that steven thank you for your enlightenment and uh all the uh

our bombs,

our bombs.

So

I

think

what is clearer to me now is that it's about restriction? Like access restriction. Um so what that means is probably like it's not just background checks. It's like current mental health checks. So it's not all backward looking. It's like today looking. And then it's also like uh maybe an age restriction and maybe it's like basically the bottom line where I'm saying it's like it doesn't matter if it's a pistol or an air 15. I applied for a global entry membership of the United States government and I'm going through a six month waiting process. I got to go to a live interview. I gotta do all this crap and somebody who can go to walmart and buy a gun and maybe those two things should look a little similar is what I mean

to cross from the United States to Mexico in a car requires something called century, right? It's like a land border crossing the current wait time is nine months, nine months processing,

but

you don't have a bill of rights right to go to Mexico. So I'll wrap this with something that I love that. I love that. I'll wrap this with something. It's not even to the bill of rights is and it's probably the original constant God, I feel dumb now I'm sorry, brilliant man with a chip in the brain as look, one of the challenges that I personally have and one of the ways in which I get caught up in these things is like everything we've talked about is like a micro solution to a micro problem today. It's nothing but nonsensical small thinking, try ballistic wars and identity politics over matters that to me are really not going to resolve themselves at all. It's just gonna be this constant conflict and back and forth. And one side is going to feel like you've got to win over the other. But in the long tail trajectory of like Are we evolving over time? I think we're asking the wrong questions if a society that was here today sitting right next to me, a man or a woman or whatever the gender they want to call themselves. I mean, and I don't mean that in a facetious way, I really, truly don't. I have no idea what human beings are gonna look like in 100 years, 200 years, 300 years was looking at us.

They would

say you're being insane, You're asking the wrong questions.

You're

Fundamentally looking at the problem the wrong way. I think that when you're designing society to be peaceful, harmonious, loving, not killing each other, this is one of the 10 commandments from 2000 years ago, don't kill each other. It's that simple. Just don't fucking kill each other. Where is that going? I'm sorry, where is that going? Oh, you got it wrong. You're not supposed to kill each other when you have that from 2000 years ago and you still have that problem that exists today, fundamentally. There's an issue at root with

people. There's

an issue at the core of like what it means to be human if that is still exists. And so the wrong questions are being asked. So the question I would actually be asking is maybe somebody out there in our discord, maybe somebody out there in our wider community has a deeper, more thoughtful, not just even answer, but question to the problem of like, how do you shape a society to be peaceful and harmonious, knowing that like in my opinion, there is no Utopia, there is no place in the world in which death does not exist. Death is a part of life, tragedy is a part of life. And so it's conflict, conflict is a part of life. So the game here is to reduce conflict, reduce conflict between nations, reduce conflict between these arbitrary lines that we draw, drew in the sand that we call borders and countries and nation states to reduce the conflict between individuals all the way from the level of the earth? Or maybe even perhaps the intergalactic and down? Because if we're really fucking talking about a society that exists 100 203 100 years from now, and Elon's vision comes true, we're talking about potentially interacting with other civilizations. Maybe if there are any out there, And then you go one layer down and you say, OK, you've got countries, why do we have countries in the first place? And then you go another layer down, you say, why do we have cities? Why do we have different ordinances and laws that exist between these different places. Okay, so what are we really trying to solve for here?

We're trying to not die. We're trying to not kill each other on the way to evolution.

I think

that somebody out there can jump in with

me and ask

these types of questions because those are the types of questions that when you narrow down that north star and you say, what am I really driving towards here? Because I'm really on board with you nick like what's really the question here? But not the question of today. The question of tomorrow. The question of where we're going. Because if we don't know where we're going and we don't know, we're building what's the fucking point of it all? We're just arguing over bullshit in order to get to where. So we just identify where we're trying to go in 100 203 100 years from now, maybe then we can actually debate over things that that matter.

That's

my take on this whole thing. I think every time our mom ran, so I just want

to go like, oh

imagine there's no

heaven

three hours of audio setup that involve drinking it.

Oh, we're not that far. People want to like stop listening, stop listening. So I thought I was just trying to end it on a high note with the guns. You know, before we literally leap over to talking about being nine years old and whacking it with your black box, you know, in the middle of the night. So we have a problem. Yeah we have a problem. What's the problem? The problem is that? Well there's there's multiple layers to this problem. The problem is that porn is more prevalent than ever before. The internet is faster than ever before. We're watching this ship or Great.

Well first of

all

yeah. Yeah. Yeah actually yeah. Help with positioning. No no first I I think there is a right way to frame this. Um What is really the problem here? We do have certain problems we have a problem with. Um God I mean I don't want to say birth rate because that's a whole other that's a whole other. Can I don't want to open we have a problem with like decreasing virginity.

Just send you

mean increasing let's just let's just talk about porn let's just generally talk about it and see where it goes. Let's talk about. I mean there there is just like people I think a lot of people don't see the battle brewing right? Like I I listen to my share of conservative podcasts. I listen to a lot of podcasts. I like to feel what's going on in the world you know from all sides um all the things all the things I don't want to tip my hand. There's no conservative porn podcasters. Um But this is actually like this is actually a thing that people are talking about on the right and I I told you guys open with this. Yeah like a J. D. Vance right? He's a Senate candidate from Ohio author of Hillbilly Elegy which was recently made into a movie.

He's really like kind of like becoming like the populist voice of this sort of middle America right voter right? Like he called recently for like a federal ban on porn saying it was sort of destructive to the family yada yada yada. Um

and

then I was telling you guys, I saw on the the actual official Republican Party platform, they say that porn is quote unquote a public health crisis, public health crisis, public health crisis. So I was curious to get all of your view on this. I think Nick doesn't have like any particularly strong. He doesn't want to talk about the fact that he winks it three times a day. It's okay. It's okay. I know you have a problem, we'll keep it behind the pod. It's a very

like simple like I don't know solution. I don't know, simple like perspective on maybe you guys have more complex you know perspectives on this. But like the the idea is that like less is better. Like porn has been scientifically proven to like hyper stimulate like unnatural amounts of dopamine in your brain and that's not good and it's probably not good for your brain. It's probably not good for your relationship. So in general less is better and I'm not saying like and and and and also like uh

can we just apply that to heroin as well

can I just apply that to alcohol you uh pascal junkie.

But I'm just saying like in terms of like J. D. Vance. No you shouldn't ban it. Like we just talked about like having freedoms to own a gun. Like you should have freedom to to to look at porn.

I

don't think this little that complicated.

It's the far right. I think we can maybe argue some. I could probably I could try to steal man it if I want to like really get out there. Let's let's go to the public health. Do you feel like the public health problem? What is the crisis? I mean I actually kind of agree with the I thought you really like what is the thing that you agree with about this? Like. No I I generally I am sympathetic to the sort of a religious right argument that like porn is like this like terrible thing that's a scourge on society. I kind of 37 years old. That's true.

I

don't think it's true. Just wanking it too blurry videos. My my black box. Yeah. I know but like like what what is the what is the issue here for like a public health issue in all seriousness? Like I I think it's like uh

it's

like mental heroin if heroin was

like

well I guess we have fentaNYL. It's like mental fentaNYL.

So is

it just like people are walking around overly stimulated and mentally high all the time. It is like as a human, I don't think there's anything more primal or like, other than the desire to breathe and

eat

up to a particular point. I don't think there's anything more of like a driving force like in men especially, right? I would argue, I would even argue that like eating is only up to a point of survival and then you'd probably switch over to the sex, right? I think like most men would just, if they had like a million girls being like, please take me now, they would only eat the minimal amount to like stop their heart beating to kind of Yeah, like all the bowls you hear about and everything. Right? I agree with that with that. I think it's a massive, I think it's a problem. Um, can I, can I throw some funny stats? I don't know if they're funny or sad. I was researching this a little bit. I was like looking at some stats. Um, uh, porn hub, biggest site in the world, 3.5 billion visitors a month.

People forget clicks more than amazon isn't just, that's not the right 3.5 million visitors, billion billion, billion porn hub is a

orange site in the world.

That is their top 10 biggest websites in the entire world, but in reality they're bigger because porn hub is a part of this conglomerate, mind geek and they own all these other sites that also have massive traffic to 3.5 billion visitors a month. Sounds like a lot. It is a lot right, But the stats get worth, they do this like year in review every year where it's just, it's kind of like a fun thing. But then you read it and you're like,

this is

actually kind of disturbing. Um show you like the top terms search by everybody, which I went through and I was like, oh my goodness. Oh yeah, no, no, no, the north America thing is like everyone's trying to get their stepsister. Here's a actually I have, I have the updated the updated search you might

be, but

like every minute of the year, 11,000 hours of video was

watched every

Minute of last year, the entire world cumulatively watched 11,000 hours of porn. Just on porn hub, 12,500 GB of data minutes transferred. If you watched all the videos uploaded last year, you would have to start in the year 1850 to end up in the present day By the time you watch them all right. Like, like it's kind of insane. And there's some stuff that's like really sad. Like the, the average age a kid watches poor now is now below 11 and it's not like, and they're not watching, they're not opening like a dirty. Well I would have done that, I would have done that. I was watching like, you know literally ship that when you and I grew up. I was like you

you

had to tweak your tv and there was some grainy thing like maybe you saw a nipple. These kids aren't seeing that they're seeing like just straight up boom direct mainline.

Okay. Yeah this is where we stand. What do you boys think? I mean let's let's get in, let's get into where what do you guys,

I want one of you to argue with me why this isn't like the worst thing ever for humanity because like I kind of feel like an aggregate as a general rule. It's terrible.

So let's say I

don't wanna say worst thing ever but it's it's really bad. It's worse than all of the, I will say it's worse than all of the drugs. What do you wanna do? You wanna regulate porn? Yeah. No. Yeah no I do I do I mean we can get into that after but I wanna hear you like yell at me, let's

let's follow your argument. So like I agree that like porn is bad for your brain and porn is potentially bad for your relationship as well. So like take me the next step further. Why that is why it's much more worse.

Do you think all kinds of things that are bad for me. I don't need the government to regulate them. Just like everything else. We always talk about perfect. I'm glad you brought up that argument

because like, I'm literally drinking mescal next to you, We've been smoking puff bars. We're gonna go

back to the prohibition

exactly like we can do all these things that are not good for you, but they feel good.

Look, take you want like a response that look like is porn as an addiction overall when you're doing too much of it bad for you? Oh my God, we can talk about that for hours fundamentally. You don't fuck the same. You don't think the same. You don't love your girlfriend or boyfriend the same. And by the way, I am talking to men and women, there are plenty of women that have porn addictions, but they haven't been different ways. Some women just want to sit around and come four times a day and they can, it's a lot easier for them. And men, how many times a day do you really need to ejaculate to feel good about yourself for me? Once every 5 to 7 days and my brain keeps working. I keep the fucking Yeah, no, I'm talking seriously about you guys and I'll tell you guys my rule, you know, we said how personal we're gonna keep it, how open. We're gonna keep it. I'll be honest with you, I've had enough wine.

I think it's actually really important. So I do want to

share

every 5 to 7 days for me. Uh in general, like when we're actually really what we're really talking about here is how often are you actually as a man? We're just talking specifically to men ejaculating. I think if you're having sex as often as you like, and is normal in your relationship is completely okay where things get sticky. No pun intended when you're you're doing it outside of your relationship. Am I saying don't do it out of side of your relationship? No, I am not. No, I am not. I am saying if you do it more often than you're having sex with your partner, you're missing out on sex that you would be having with your partner because you're jerking off to girls that don't actually exist, they exist in that fucking metaverse, which is about to get weirder and weirder and weirder and you know what they're gonna do, they're gonna change their colors and they're gonna have funny little fucking features that are gonna be impossible for the woman that you find in your life to ever recreate. And so what happens to you, you become numb to stevens point, why is this really a public health crisis because you become numb because you can't actually be attracted anymore to the person that you think you want to be with and if you can't be attracted to them, then your relationship suffers. And you know what happens if your relationship suffers, then maybe you won't ever have a baby with that person, maybe you won't ever procreate with that person? I I think there's really fundamentally issues there were like or maybe even before that you never even find that person because this porn addiction Found you at 13.

And so really, like, another one of the sub topics here is the whole virginity

rising

rising case of virginity that none of us thank God ever had to deal with, but it was like for us, it was normal, like, by the time you're in high school to get laid, you know, at least by then. But now what's happening is you have Snapchat, you have Tiktok, you have porn and the best you can do to feel connected to a girl is

send a text

and that gets that's like erotic. It's like, oh yeah, she kind of fucking sexted me

and imagine where it's going

to imagine

where we're going in the metaverse, like, it's only going more and more that direction, like so how are you doing, like, sustained our civilization when, when this transition happens, right? If if we still believe that that's gonna happen, which I think we all do like, where is this going?

Yeah, I mean there is a real case there there is a real case there where it becomes harder two, Like, procreate like because you you're just so caught up in like, the ultimate fucking fantasy with three women with your VR headset on in the future which may only be a year or two away. Like, I mean, most of these days, like most people don't really watch porn that way like most people don't but like if in 2 to 34 years that's the preferred way to watch porn. And it's better than real life and we start to get like this. What do you mean if it's better than real life like porn is already better than real life for like a lot of people. That's why there are all these drop offs right? It's better up here. It's not better down here

yet.

Your brain is the thing that like matters. That's where all the little chemicals are released that make you feel good. Like that is the problem that's where all the crack receptors are.

I just still can't take the jump to like public health crisis here. So like I agree that like population decline is a very much of a public health and an economic crisis but I don't think that like porn is the primary driver of that. Like So I feel like I still haven't heard the best argument for why

it's a public health crisis. Public health crisis is the J. D. Vance. Like oh god we're not starting enough families thing like that. I get where he's coming from. He's like a religious right guy. I do think that we are kind of destroying families and that sort of thing to a degree. I I see that point of view like to me the public and you guys are talking about like, I hear this argument a lot, right? Like, oh, I'm in my room, just fucking and who cares why do you care what I do? And and a lot of these guys, and if you're out there listening and you don't leave your room, like, like, get out there. I understand that a lot of people are out there.

Like, you steven, you wanna close the door behind you, you get your, like, your beautiful girlfriend, you're like, you can't jerk it to some

blah,

blah, blah in your room. And I and I and I get that, right? So, I don't want to be like,

this is a blanket

terrible for everybody. Nobody should ever do that. I'm just I'm just saying like, it is, it is dangerous and we we we don't acknowledge the danger of it. And we actually, like, glorify it to a large degree in society, which I think is very dangerous, right? And to get back to what I was saying earlier, we talked about it as though it's just like, it's the same as you drinking in your room, right? When you drink makers, right? Your consumption of the makers,

even though

it might kill you if you drink too much of it, it doesn't have any impacts on the rest of society, right? Your increased demand for makers means that somebody makes more makers or bookers or whatever the hell your alcohol does also mean that you might die and that it does, but you dying is your own choice, right? But there are other things we do in this world that's jerking yourself off into obliteration until you never allow this stuff to proliferate, you create a demand for it is a huge market for it. And then it's completely ungh ated and it can get in the hands of like, there's literal like eight year olds who have phones who get like addicted to this stuff at a stage of their life where their brain is super plastic, right? And then it forms in a particular way, and now you're getting two something like, if you go to like read it, like no, there's like a whole, like, actually I don't if you guys know this, but this is a huge internet sub community of like anti porn, like they call it like no fap on Reddit, whatever, right? It's a bunch of people who have kind of gotten together collectively have been like, holy fuck, like, I'm literally like a heroin addict that's like destroyed my life, and they all support each other and try to get over it. Like if you read some of this stuff, it's like heartbreaking, they're literally 12 year olds, 13 year olds who are impotent

of

course at 13, like 13, like a light breeze is no more. There is girl walks by with like, one, like slight just slight nipple and lopsided boots, the most tragic,

13 I had a bone every 40 seconds. Like there's nothing to do about it

now because the best you had was fucking weird ass tv or a magazine or half a boob or nat geo you know, like that's what you had and what they have to stevens point is high definition fucking man and it is crazy, concentrated. Absolutely. There is, it is. And that could be partly environmental and part of the environmental piece could be, porn,

could be

food based, could be in the air, could be the chemicals in your fucking cleaning. Could be the fact that people don't lift as much, could be the fact so many things, right? And and we've talked about this many times, but like one major factor for sure is like you're you're not supposed to watch that much porn and ejaculate that often. Like that's that's not normal at all. Because what's normal is like, let's just go back 100 years. What would it be 100 years ago? It would be through sex and in adolescence it would be maybe through jerking off, but it would be like in your brain, in your head and through your

imagination.

Yeah, I I still like, I'm here, I'm listening to you guys talk about the problem, but I don't understand how it's a public health crisis and I

certainly because we are systematically destroying millions of young kids ability to like have like healthy interactions with women for the rest of their life Because at their most formative process of their brains, they're consuming this ship and its like warping their perception of everything. I thought I was gonna It's

steven believes that every fetus is a human life. So he believes that every seaman cell is a human life

mm

Like you

know it's not related to that. Like

look

I'm gonna be personal with you guys for a second. I didn't grow only one just laying it all out. But I wasn't born. I wasn't 12. And I was like I hate boobs. I'm never gonna look at them on the Internet. Like when I was young I had a computer in my room and I got connected to the internet and like I discovered

I

know I had the internet, it's like 11. I finally got it. Like I started watching this ship right? And I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. Like everybody around me was like, oh no it's great explore yourself, blah blah blah blah. And I was like yeah it's totally fine. And like I thought my mom was like a religious like no, god's gonna punish you if you wank it. Um You know. So I was like no like that. And then like I realized like kind of like later in life that like, like I was

like

I had like a little bit of problem, right? And I don't think like I was any more than a lot of other people. But like I I remember very distinctly, I like started dating this girl in Boston when I was like 21 or 22 and like I I took her you know home one night and we went out on a date and came back and we tried to do it and I had a couple of drinks and I was like, it didn't quite like work and I was like uh because I was drunk and then I was like sober a different day and it happened again and then I was like, oh

wait

a minute, what's going on here is going on here,

this is this is the

most personal steven has ever been ever more willing to

share with the bank with us and it's very,

I sat there and I was probably drunk too and I was like

this

is probably not normal, but I didn't have any context for this at the time, I was just like what, what the heck? And then like, I kind of went down this rabbit hole. I come from a psychology background, I understand the brain, I started digging into this and I was basically like, oh I've just been like fucking like just doing lines six times a night for like 10 years is just and like I have just like and like my brain is not like I have like the brain of like a junkie, it's just like I need a fix, I need to fix, I need to fix. And I realized I was like, kind of like,

it

is literally a neurological effect. It is the same effect you get when you do cocaine, when you do heroin, you do anything like the brain, it's just like, dopamine kind of cycle, right? You do things in anticipation of reward, You get more of the reward and you need more and more and more stimulus to get the same reward right

here, because I think there's a lot of people audience are like, yeah, sure I get that.

Yeah, We we've all taken it too far and as a result you were left with. But like I went I went online looking and I saw like a lot like this is where I saw these people who are like fucking 14 and they're like.

I

literally can't, I literally can't get a boner, and I was like holy sh it. And I was like, it was like, it's like an actual thing, like, a lot of people come out of the woodwork

because they've been doing a bunch of lines

of cocaine. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, cocaine is analogous to fucking jerking off and porn all. It's it's it's unnatural in the same way that like, our brains were designed to love sugar and when we saw sugar in the Wire, we're like, oh, binge the sugar in the real world. Like, we we weren't designed to take this in, it's like so overwhelming to our natural sensory like operative state, right? Like we can't deal with like

the infinite

like fucking crazy ship versus

like

one woman right? Like and back in the day, right? You like make fun of like the kids who used to get like the lingerie like issue of like the freaking Sears catalog and they're like, oh my God, this girl's gotta Bronn. And now kids today are like watching like weird stuff. They're like, their brains are warped. They're formed different. I think this is just like everything we discuss

a

very dangerous issue that if we allow the government to intervene in any way. What? So and and and there is a line, right? A certain level of regulation and involvement by a bigger entity beyond the individual is important. Sometimes when they're really truly is a crisis. Well, Big Daddy's got to get involved. Like that's just how it goes. But one thing that I personally believe is that to me porn is one of those industries that needs to be completely open completely obviously like legal. But I look at it the way I look at uh prostitution for example, I wish that prostitution was not only legal but regulated in the sense that they they the workers were taken care of that they were not put into situations where they were harmed by the customers. I mean I'm sure, I mean sometimes you can look at countries and societies where this is the case, some fucking crazy dude walks in and beats the shit out of a woman. You know, these things could be prevented.

The

fact that they could be tested. The fact that they could be taken care of from an insurance and government perspective to make sure that they have the need, their individual needs and wants met. I think you could look at porn the same way. No, you can't. It's not a 1-1 individual transaction. It's a digital thing. That's infinitely scalable. It has all these. Why is that an important factor? Because for example, when you go and interact with a prostitute,

you

can look, you can look at said prostitute and be like

you

Are not a 12 year old girl who was kidnapped and sold in this. Like like, like the like I don't I don't mean to get too dark here, but right? But like porn hub for example, came under serious fire in recent years because people were literally kidnapping girls, girls like this stuff, This is what I'm talking about with the externality. When you have this free platform, we're like, oh I can do anything I want in the privacy was already protected by law. That's not okay in the first place. It's not okay in the first place that has nothing to do with porn, who's stopping there. There's a there's a literal performing sexual acts and videos being put online. That's already in

what country is

who's holding them accountable?

Who's

holding that person? That's that's a whole division of law that is like dedicated to making sure that that never happens. They move this. This is a similar argument,

right? I think that that's actually fine. Like, they'll get smacked in their own countries. Like uh because the internet allows you to like, upload things doesn't mean that makes it that that doesn't make it legal. Then you get the legal repercussions afterwards. Like, that's fair. I think that's actually fine.

It has to because porn has to be looked at as what it really is. I mean, you're you're you're taking like a piece of something that is inherently illegal in the first place, and then

like,

plugging that into the conversation of porn. Like, that was never legal in the first place, that was never okay. There's there's an argument with you apply this elsewhere in life, right? Were the consumption of the product that promotes even though you consuming the product is your right to do it, right? But you're consuming of the product produces These horrible externalities in the production of the product, right? We as a society sometimes step in and go like, OK, we need we need to put like, at least like a check in place here, right? Like, like porn hub at one

had 80

moderators

80

monitoring 12,500 GB per minute of transfers, like, and you're like, well, they're regulated in their country but they moved to some like freaking, they moved to ST Barts or some random jurisdiction, right? Like that's not like a good, there has to be something else besides that. Right? We're like oh they'll be regulated in in the sedan. Like is that really a good argument? Eric should we plug lobster too?

What

is lobster tube? That's

all. You're all layer ones.

I think the real reason nick didn't want to share is he's got all these Altmaier ones that just like too good. Too good for the

main

keeping them to himself. I'll tell you what what story? Maybe we'll close it out. I think this is probably where it's at. Uh we were we were on a trip, we were we were on a trip one time and I don't know why or how porn came up. Probably bunch of guys, you know like I was just talking about random ship and then all of a sudden um one of our, one of our good friends, Jason brings up like the 17th most popular porn. Like he had one point done like proper due diligence and gone down the rabbit hole and being like okay what are what are like the top porn sites and down there at number like 17 was lobster tube and we just died laughing. So apparently there's like an aggregator out there called lobster tubes. So like we probably just did a disservice to someone who actually has a problem and just gave them like the holy holy mecca, like the mecca, the Mecca grail, The holy grail of like, like for anyway, I, I think that what we ultimately have is something that, um, like most, most things in life should remain open and free, but only regulated to the point that it truly affects. Do you, do you think nine year olds should be able to just like have access to this? Like everywhere

they have access to like

the Sun, which is the same as this.

This is literally

The worst crack for like a 90

nine year old should have access to the Internet Stephen Yes.

But with some restrictions and monitoring like

the kids can't

like, they can't run like we're already seeing evidence of them. Like they're freaking brains are warped already from all the stupid shit on Tiktok. Like what do you think is happening with this? Like it's insane to me that people don't think they need to be like, at least some guardrails, right? Like that. I'm crazy. I'm like, I'm like blown away that people are like so lackadaisical about this

then on the chrome browser to moderate the internet and like who's on the moderate? Like who becomes the moderator, the mom, the dad, the chrome, like who becomes

parents should, parents should moderate, right? But like, I think as a society, we have to at least ask the question. Like we, we've obviously gotten together and be like, hey, we shouldn't have 11 year old smoking cigarettes, we shouldn't just give them cigarettes, we shouldn't just give them booze, it's not good for them. Like in my mind, this is like way worse for an 11 year old, like way worse. I think this is like, messes them up in a way that's like, potentially, like very devastated, also could make your sex better by the time, you know, I think that's I think that's fucking bullshit. I hate that.

Can I make you guys all laugh because

you're just like your with your girlfriend, you're like, so

you

like a black bear into the bedroom

and I were listening to NPR episode about gun control on the way after Jackson Hole and this woman, it goes like it doesn't matter, it's a man or woman, but like this person goes like uh did you know that the that the shooter was a white supremacist, and then they got their ideologies from internet, and did you know that they got their ideologies from meme culture on the internet, and I was like, in my mind, I'm just thinking like, okay, so yeah, so you got to ban the internet, you gotta band, you gotta band memes, you gotta band communication in general, like you got a band like there's not a single thing left that can exist, You gotta band porn, you got a band fucking friendships, you get

ban porn, I'm asking you to acknowledge that it is an unbelievably addictive thing that society is not really grasping with how addictive and destructive it is, and we have to take a look at like how dangerous it is, especially for young kids who see this ship because they have phones, they're online, they don't have context, their brains are very neuro plastic and it's manifesting in society now. Like there's a reason, there's a reason why people's relationships are fun, there's a reason why people are virgins. The reason why people prefer like this, like having real relationships with women, it's like a and I think this is going to start like a like a hashtag let me wink Campaign or if you're with Stephen consenting 30 year old adult wink away, that's not my point. I just think people are

too

like sort of, I think we're too tipsy to to like tolerate the level of nuance that steven. Alright, you're bringing some great nuance, it's very important, content,

sterile and I like the taste, it's

fine, we'll just cut this whole section, Just cut it all the reality is the reality, Everything very good takes in there, but it's a little, it's a little too sterile, as eric said, I think that's a wrap, thank you guys for being here, This is a wonderful episode, it was probably our longest one ever. Um probably because there was a little too much mescal in wine, but we appreciate you being here,

I

hope you enjoyed these topics. If you want more of these topics, if you want different topics, let us know what to discuss. Hop in the discord, alfalfa pot dot com. And if there were any interesting um takes quotes, anything like that in here, throw them in a in a review on Apple podcasts and we'll read them out the next episode. We love you guys,

you guys

later.

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