7 Expert Negotiation Tactics That Will Put a Buyer/Seller/Tenant on Your Side - Transcripts
This is the bigger podcast podcast. Show 6 20. We had to get her to be our advocate in that scenario and no listing Agent wants to have to go to her clients and say I got beat. So instead what we do is we coach them to go say, hey, we took a really good shot, we listed it for as high as we possibly could. We didn't get any buyers but good news. I got a person that's still willing to pay more than I think anybody else will now. She's aligned herself with them against us. It makes it easier for the other side to adopt or to accept the offer that they didn't want. This is the same technique that we give people when we say, hey, if you're gonna live in a duplex and live in one side and rent out the other side, you don't have to tell your tenants that you own the property, what's going on? Everyone is David Greene, your host of the bigger pockets real estate podcast here today with my amazing co host rob.
How's it going everybody today Mr rob episode. So here I'm gonna be taking the reins a little bit, a little, a little nervous. I'm gonna be the one turning the mic around to you and asking you the hard questions, David, are you sure you're ready
for that? Hey, here's the
Thing. I used to co host this thing with Brandon Turner and I was allowed to get one word in for every 300 that he said. So anytime I get a little bit of my time, I'm good with it. Alright, and a quick word from today's show sponsors
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Listen one week early and ad free by joining wondering plus in apple podcasts or the wondering app. Today we're gonna be talking about skill, which is the sequel to your book to your best selling book in my heart sold, is that right?
Yes, sold was a book written for new real estate agents. This is a book written to have agents become top producers where they make a really good amount of money and they kind of dominate
their market awesome.
So before we jump into today's interview, let's get to today's quick. I'm gonna just brag on David a little bit. I don't know if you've ever read any of his books, but they are very, very, very good. So if you're looking to expand your real estate horizon as a real estate investor, as a realtor, then go pick up a copy of skill. You can go to bigger pockets dot com slash skill and all of the good knowledge and, and uh, David's Noggin, You're gonna get a piece of that when you open up that book again. That's bigger pockets dot com slash skill. Okay, so let's dive into it. I want to talk about skill a little bit. David, how long ago was you wrote this? Is this all still top of mind for you? Um It was I probably
started this book about two years ago because I sort of wrote an entire like dictionary for real estate agents and then we had to split it up into different sections because it was like the bible just way too long to be a standalone book. And so I was writing this book when the shelter in place hit for Covid, That's where it started. But yeah, it is, it's fresh in my mind because we review and edit things so many times before a book gets really, so in this book we're gonna focus on today, there's several, there's several chapters obviously in it, but it's designed to help real estate agents learn how to sell more houses and do better. So there's stuff, this is exactly what you do to take a listing. This is how you work with buyers. Uh this is how you understand loans and there's one chapter that specifically geared towards negotiation. This is what you do to win when you are negotiating both for your clients and with your clients. And so we thought that this would be the best chapter to share in the podcast because negotiation is prevalent in all elements of real estate, not just when you're a real estate
salesperson. Yeah, I don't
really feel like the negotiation really ends at any point. I mean just like looking at the deal that I'm in right now, you know, we've gotten the offer accepted. That took a lot of negotiation which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit on in the later on in the show. But there's also the inspections in negotiating there there is the appraisals and if there's an appraisal gap or if it doesn't appraise, there's negotiations there. If you're buying like all the furniture that comes with the house. So negotiation is really something that's that is from the start of a deal all the way through the end and it really, even after that you're still negotiating with people after that if you want to uh if you want to flip it and and rehab it and burn it and all that kind of stuff. So if I remember this correctly, I think there are seven tactics that you lay out in the book around the realm of negotiation. Is that right?
Yeah. There's seven that we're going to cover here and then we may throw a couple of bonus ones in there, you never know like you and I we have a property and contract that we bought. And part of how we got that in contract was I told our I told you to tell our real estate agent, here's the strategy to use and lo and behold he went out there and it worked. So this is sort of just from the years of experience that I have negotiating for clients negotiating for myself. These are some of the ways that I've um simplified the concepts that I use similar to how a contractor has a tool belt and when he needs a specific tool he knows there's a screw, I need a screwdriver, that's how these sort of end up working out for me in my business where Oh this is a problem I'm facing. This is the technique that I need to use.
Okay, so why don't we just hop into it here. One of the techniques that you've outlined is called baseline adjustment. Can you explain to us? What exactly does that
mean? This is
really the foundational component that everybody needs to understand when they're negotiating. And it's not just negotiating With another person. There's actually a lot of negotiation that happens with yourself. So I this concept of baseline adjustment is really not unique to me. I just put ways to apply it into our industry. I was walking through Costco with Brandon Turner one time and we walked in and they have these TVs are like the first thing you see when you go in and he said hey you know why they do that, it's like probably cause I don't want to move that heavy T. V. To the back of the place. And he said no they do that because if the first thing you see is a $900 tv. Everything after that seems cheaper. It's called price anchoring and it started this this uh like conversation in my own head with so many things work like that. You come up with a baseline of what you believe something is worth or what you believe yourself is worth And anything above that.
You think you're paying too much and anything below that you think you're getting a good deal. This is how this is very prevalent real estate because we use comps so if you are buying a house and it appraises at 3.3 but you paid 3.25 In your head, you just beat the other side by $50,000 And the same would be true of the other side. They would feel like they just lost because the baseline was established at the appraised value of 3.3 many times this happens with list prices. So we see a property listed for sale, we say, oh they want 700,000, I want to offer 6 90. And if you get it for 6 90 you think you want, if you have to pay 7 10 that you think you lost. So right off the bat, you say, oh I paid 7 10, I lost. This sucks, I lost $10,000. Then it appraises for 750 And all of a sudden you go, Oh my God, I just made $40,000. It makes no sense. But this is what happens with um our emotions because we're establishing a baseline that we think something is worth. So one of the things that a good negotiator does is they help the other person to move the baseline in their, in their mind. So this, this applies all the time.
So I have an agent come to me and my team and say, hey, David, I want to work on your team. But this is the split. I wanted the commission and in their head, that's what they're worth. Well, if I just tell them, well this is all you're gonna get, it's gonna be this amount. They feel like they're not appreciated. Like they're being taken advantage of. Like they're being ripped off, it's very negative. If I say, Hey, let me tell you what my profit margin is like most of these big teams that, so real estate operating 14% profit margin. So at 50% that you're gonna get to keep your already making more than what the team leaders making. I also have a lot more expenses that you don't have. I said X amount of money every month that if we don't sell houses, I could lose it. You don't have any of that.
I spent all this money on marketing. You don't have to spend anything on marketing. And as we talk, they start to see things from my point of view and they start to have their baseline adjust to where 50% could seem like a really good deal compared to the 14% that the team leader might be making. So that's the theory is when you're going into negotiation, what you're really trying to do is get the other side to adjust what they believe the thing is worth without forcing them. And one of the techniques that we use is on the spectrum and I'll stop here to see if you have any questions before I get into that.
No, you know, I actually kind of relate to this in some capacity. I mean, it's like there are people who will list the house and then I'll make the offer at the asking price and then they'll get back to me and they say, well, you know, we're really only accepting offers that are $50,000 over or whatever I'm like but you that's not the price you sold. And so now I'm like on principle it's very hard for me to pay more because you showed me that pretty price. And now you're telling me that's not actually the price that
you want now
If they had come to you instead and said, Hey I realized that you thought 700,000 is the price that you were gonna pay. And we're saying 7:50. But here's why There's a cop on the street that sold at 8:25 and it's only a little bit bigger than ours. And the market has adjusted since here to here. And this house is unique because it's the only one on the street that has this amenity that might get you in your mind to start thinking oh I feel a little bit better about paying more than before. And what's happening is you are adjusting what you think that house is worth. The baseline value is being adjusted by what they say bad realtors don't do that. They just go you don't have to pay more than that and you're like but then why did you list it for 700? And everyone gets pissed. This happens over and over and then they just act like well not my problem if you want the house you're gonna have to pay for it. This is realtors egos to get in the way. But a good agent understands sharing information to adjust the other person's baseline makes it easier for them to do what they want, which is to buy the house that you inquired about in the first place.
100% because I'll have a realtor that might go to an open house because I buy like out of state all the time. And so if the realtor goes and they go to the open house and they communicate with that other realtor that the listing agent and then that listing agents like, hey, by the way, this is probably gonna go over asking, there are a lot of things that are selling for this and this and this, they kind of prep my realtor, then my realtor brings that back to me and at least I'm like, okay, well at least I know to expect that versus just kind of getting clothesline right out the gate.
Yeah, we did this a little bit with the house we bought. So they had a really high purchase price. They were on the market for a while and we told our realtor to mention a couple of things and one of them was that houses that have as much land as this house has, don't, they're not eligible for the majority of conventional loans. So right off the bat their buyer pool is shrunk because conventional mortgages would not work on a property like this. It was also at a price point that makes it a jumbo mortgage so that the loan terms are much less desirable than what somebody that was getting a conventional loan could do, we sort of went through the list of, hey, here's why we think your property is taking longer to sell. And those were designed not to insult them, but to get them to adjust their own expectation of what their property is worth. And this is really the foundation of what a lot of negotiating is, is re establishing a baseline. That is more, I don't want to say with the right word, reasonable in the other person's side. And so in the book, I list several ways that we do this on the David Green team, but one of the biggest ones is we use what's called the spectrum and the spectrum is just a way that I stopped the other side from having their cake and eating it too. So many times you'll get a buyer client, they will come to you and they'll say, hey, I want to invest in the bay Area because I know the appreciation is crazy. It's awesome. I'm gonna make a ton of money.
And I also want a 25% cash on cash return in year one. They have put themselves into a box where they cannot be successful because they're looking for something that doesn't exist. There are no houses out here that are eligible on the mls at a 25% cash on cash return in an area that's gonna see appreciation. And if there was somebody bought it yesterday, it doesn't exist anymore. So what we have to do is instead of telling them you're not gonna get that, that sort of creates a conflict between us and them is we relate this information through the theory of the spectrum. So I will take a piece of paper and on one end I will draw appreciation on the other end. I will draw cash flow and I will draw a line connecting them. And I'll say, here's how this whole thing works. Supply and demand. Like there's every property has a purpose. Well, some properties purposes cash flow and some properties purposes appreciation, nothing is 100% 1 and zero the other we can find you a property that's right in the middle, healthy appreciation and healthy cash flow. Some of them will go further towards cash flow and you tend to give up appreciation and some will go the other direction.
What matters more to you. I think appreciation matters more. Okay, the question we have is, how far can we go towards appreciation before you say that's too far. I need more cash flow. It's not safe. We find where that is in the spectrum and those are the properties that we target and I relay information like this all the time. Someone comes to me and says, hey, I want a house hack, but I don't want to rent out the rooms and I don't want a big rehab budget and I want to be in the best area possible and they have all these ideas and I have to say, OK, well those properties don't exist, somebody else would have already bought that. So on one end of house hacking, you have maximum profitability. On the other hand, you have maximum comfort. We have to figure out how far can we get you towards profitability that it's still comfortable enough for you and your wife to live. You don't want to be sharing a bathtub with a stranger and that is the way that we present the argument to them so that they don't think that they can have everything, have their cake and eat it too. It would be a better way to put it.
Just get, they get in their own way thinking, if I just look at enough properties, I'm gonna find that one unicorn that isn't out there.
So effectively, if I'm hearing this right, you know, when you're establishing that spectrum, you're basically trying to show them, I guess another outcome that could be equally good, just different than what their expectations are. So if they are, you know, really hung up on cash flow, but you say, well, hey, on the flip side of this, just so, you know, appreciation is also a great thing. If you were to land this specific deal, it's not really a loss, It's just, it might be different than what your original goal was
because life is all about trade offs. Like just when you're looking at investing in general, it's a spectrum on one end, you have maximum returns on the other end, you have safety, higher returns tend to come with more risk. The problem is everybody walks into it. That's an experience and says, how do I get a ton of returns with no risk. And that's literally how you get taken advantage of because someone makes a fake instagram account that looks like me or you and message them and says, hey, invest in my forex fund, there's no risk and high return and people fall for it. But that isn't the way it works. So like I have invest with David Greene dot com, the website, people can register to invest with me and I tell them very clearly, hey, if you're looking for a very safe, it's not secured and it's not um, the return is not dependent on how well the property performs. You're going to get the interest rate that I told you about irregardless of how things work out. You're gonna get a smaller return, but there's a lot of safety if you want something riskier, you can get this kind of a return, but there's risk involved in this indication. If the property doesn't do well, you could lose your money that the way of presenting that information on the spectrum helps people to understand what decision would be best for them.
So this seems like a really great time to get into technique number two here, we're calling this, making sure your herd, having your opponent punch themselves out. Can you explain that a little bit?
This is a communication tactics. So anybody who's married probably understands this at a high level, even if you're not a real estate salesperson or a real estate negotiator. Yeah, if you I I use the analogy of like a boxer, okay, most people that are inexperienced at martial arts or combat, they think they're gonna walk into a fight and they're just gonna punch as hard as they can until they hit the other person, they're gonna overpower him and knock him out. But what a good boxer does is they sit there and they let you just throw a punch after punch after punch while they're defending themselves and not being hurt and then you get really tired and then that's when they hit you and they knock you out. So there is an art to knowing when you can throw a knockout blow and when you're just kind of trying to soften out the opponent. So another way this analogy can be understood is your idea that you're trying to get somebody to see or understand is a seed, you don't want to plant that seed on rocky soil, you want to plant it on soft soil. So this is a technique to soften up the other side and I know that this is, this works in everything in life, not just real estate because I've seen it in my personal life as well. So rob you're a married man. You probably understand this very well if you have something that you want your wife to do or you guys are in conflict over you want something, she wants something different. If you go in there and you just say here are all the reasons that you're wrong and you're not worth as much as what you think you're worth. And this is the only reason I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you just this little amount, not what you're asking for and you're just gonna overpower them. Does that ever work?
No, no, no, no.
better technique would be, is to say, hey honey, can we talk? I want to get this thing smoothed out, whatever our issue is and that's a negotiation. Can you tell me other ways that I've been letting you down or not coming through for you? And then she starts sharing some of the ways that you've disappointed her? You've heard her and you say man, that must have been really hard, thank you for putting up with that. Can you tell me a little bit more about like what you wish I was doing that? I'm just not doing enough of her? What I what I don't understand they're going through and then she's gonna give you a lot more information and you keep doing that path. What you're doing is you're getting the other side to push themselves out. All of the fear or the anger or the bitterness or whatever we're holding onto, gets released in that conversation. So imagine that you're trying to buy a house from somebody off market and its direct to seller and that seller is selling their grandmother's house and they had a great relationship with grandma and you think the house is worth 300,000. But to them it's worth 500,000 cause this was grandma's house.
Okay, telling that person your grandma's house is not worth what you think. In fact, you're lucky that I'm even giving you 2 50. You shouldn't be expecting that. Let me show you all the things that's wrong with the house is like going to your spouse and saying, let me tell you everything that's wrong with you to start a conversation. It doesn't work right. Instead what you want to say is tell me what you love about the house. Tell me the memories that you had here, tell me why you think it's worth 500,000. You get them talking until they can hear themselves and realize, oh, I'm it's not worth 500,000. Just because that's what it's worth to me. And once they're punched out, once they've gotten everything they have to get off of their chest. That's when you would introduce your idea.
Okay? So I think I might have a tactical example of this, let me know if I'm misunderstanding this concept, but on this house that you and I are in contract on, we actually came in and we gave um, considerably lower offer. Like what we felt was what it was worth. They said no, well they basically, they told us to kick rocks and we're like, okay, cool. So now we wanted our realtor to come in and you know, play play buddy buddy with the other realtor and say like, Hey, I really want this and had him check in with the other realtor. We had him checking in. Hey, how's it going? How's it going? My guys are still interested in this. I'm helping them make this decision. Here's why we're offering this. Hey, if we can put a deal together, maybe I could get them to come up a little bit.
And so basically every single day was like those little, those little jabs, right? Every single day, checking in, checking in, checking in to the point where I feel like, you know, at the very end, when we did get our final offer accepted. It's because we had sort of worn them down over the course of one or two weeks.
Okay, that's a great point. That technique was a combination of what we're talking about now getting them to punch themselves out mixed with triangle theory, which we're gonna get into later. But what we basically had our agent do was align himself with the sellers against us so that they had a sort of a common enemy which is what we're gonna get into his triangle theory and then get the listing agent to keep telling him why she thought the house was worth what she said. And eventually she ran out of explanations because the house wasn't selling and that's when they were like okay well let's hear what these guys have to say. We gave our explanation for why we wanted the purchase price, we got
let's move on to the third one here, keep things moving. Another technique that you call the detention formula.
Yes. The tension formula is something every agent needs to understand. It's particularly important when you're in a situation where feelings could get hurt so this would apply. Um it could apply when you're writing an offer to buy a house but it wouldn't come up as often because when you if there's multiple buyers like in the market we're in today, you kinda gotta do whatever you gotta do to get that thing. You don't really have a whole lot of leverage. But once you're in contract and now you're negotiating a request for repairs or a credit based on the inspection report, there's a lot more subjectivity to a situation like that and that's where the tension formula is best used. What you're basically trying to do. And I have a diagram in the book that kind of explains this is, you're trying to create a pressure capsule and keep the other side in there until they are so uncomfortable from the pressure that you've created. That they give you what you want to get out of that, that I say like the lid blows off the thing and you get what you want. The problem is on on one side of this pressure capsule, you have to be likable if you just go in there like a jerk and you're like, listen, I got news for you. We'll pull out at any second. We don't need your house.
There's a ton of houses out there. All that does is tell the seller, well then fine go find someone else, I don't need you. And if you come in not being likable enough and your and your, you don't hold tension on the other side. They think you're a pushover. They don't have to listen to you. So you're trying to create these two walls where on one side, you're very firm, But you're balancing that out by being very likable at the same time. And I have examples in the book of what it looks like, but you're basically trying to not air on either side. Sometimes you'll get agents that will come in and say, Hey, um, we'd really like a price reduction of $30,000. It would mean a lot to my clients. Um, you know, just do the best you can, we don't want to blow up the deal, but we just really hope you can help us right? When I hear that, when I'm the listing agent, I just think that's a hard no, you are going to pay what you're gonna pay. Your coming in so soft.
There's no firmness at all. I don't have any worry that you're gonna back out of the deal on the other side. They could not be likable enough and just be totally firm. Hey buddy, here's the deal. Either you drop the price or we're moving on. You have 24 hours to let us know if I know I've got four other people that want to buy this house and you approach me like that. I'm gonna tell you to kick rocks and I'm gonna go find somebody else. So what our agent did in that example or what we coached him to do was to continually go to them and say this is the price and this is why and they can't pay more than that and they shouldn't pay more than that. But he was so
that he won them over to seeing it from his side. And that's the tension formula is you are trying to have equal parts of both of this and if you can do that, it puts the other side in a very uncomfortable situation where your request that you asked for is creating pressure your firm so that pressure cannot escape. But you're so likable that they can't just write you off and say, I don't want to deal with this person at all. And eventually if they sit there long enough, they will usually give in the top will blow off and you'll get what you want.
So what you're saying is you shouldn't go to another realtor and say, hey bucko, sell me this
Yeah, that's or or insult the house. Right? A lot of people do that. They'll go look at this thing man. It's probably got lead paint. I bet you there's his best everywhere. Who knows how many people have died in this thing? It's barely worth whatever you're not likable enough. It makes it too easy for someone to kick you off. Right. The other thing you don't want to do is say, hey, I really need a house so bad. I'll do anything it takes to buy it.
Please don't rip me off when you give me the price you want for the house. Well that's what they're going to do. So it's finding that balance and then knowing you're creating pressure that your opponent is sitting in and they're gonna tap out themselves when it gets to be too high.
Yeah, I can definitely see this popping up quite a bit during inspections and kind of listing out all the different things that you want them to repair or credits, there's a little bit of teamwork that's needed from both sides. If you just went and said
because the leverage becomes even at that
don't want to lose, they don't want you to back out. Just like you don't want to have to back out in the beginning when you're trying to put in contract in today's market, you don't have a whole lot of leverage. This very rarely applies. But like I was saying when you're in escrow, you've got a little more leverage. They've started to move on. They're packing up their stuff. Maybe they put another house in contract that they don't want to lose. That's where a technique like this would really shine.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think there's a lot of instances where, yeah, it's like you don't want to throw the deal over it. So there is firm, you have to be firm about it and kind of have your, your list of things that you resolute about and then, yeah, there's a little bit of cooperation I imagined. So, um, okay, so let's, let's keep moving here. Next one you've defined as a trademark really, if not, I'm gonna get you in touch with my trade mark attorney. The persuasion formula.
Yeah. So this is a really fast one. We can go through this pretty quick. Here's, here's the actual paragraph from the book. Well basically here's the, it's a five step process. I should say that. It's like literally a formula for how you can communicate information. Step one is acknowledge the difficulty or negativity in the situation that the other side is facing. Step two is empathize with them. Step three is align yourself with them. Step four is propose your solution and then step five is to use logic to support why you believe it's a win for all parties. So here's what that would look like in practical terms.
I'm sure this comes as a shock to your sellers that's acknowledging the difficulty or negativity in the situation and I know it's going to be a tough pill to swallow with the plans they've no doubt made for their future. That's empathizing with them. But I really want you and I to work together to arrive at a solution that works for everyone that would be aligning myself with the other agent. How about if you credit us $3,000 towards the worn out AC. Unit and we'll drop the home warranty that you're currently paying for. That would be the solution. I can convince my clients they won't need the warranty. If we already have the credit for the air conditioner, that's the logic to support what I'm saying. When you, when you set things up in this order, you sort of disarm the other side and then you align yourself with them so they want to come up with a solution, you propose a solution putting you in control because if you let them propose a solution, they're probably gonna say we're gonna give you a home warranty. We're not gonna pay for an air conditioner and that's gonna be much worse for my side. And in the end I give facts to support what I said.
so I don't wanna, I don't wanna oversimplify this. But to me this sounds like a good old uh compliment sandwich. So this would be like you saying, hey rob, love you. You're a great guy. When you were doing that bigger pockets intro we had to edit it quite a bit. But here's a fact. You're a very likable guy and you did, you did great for your first run. Here's how you can improve it. Yeah.
It's a similar structure to where a compliment sandwich is designed to make the criticism not shock the other party into being your enemy. This is very similar where this is something that as an agent I'm using to get the other agent to agree with what I'm looking for and the same thing can apply when you're negotiating for anything. So this could work if you have to go talk to your boss about a race. Hey, I understand that the company is not having the best year ever and there may not be a ton of money to go around. I also know that by me asking you to do this. I'm sending you to your boss, which may not feel good. But look, I want to do a great job for you so that you look great at the next quarterly meeting and I think that I can make you look like the top manager in the company. If you can give me a raise of this amount, I will take on these responsibilities and make sure you look good. And I believe I can do that because my sales record the last three years has been the top in the area, I'm getting even better and I now have a new book business that I didn't have before, that is the same five step system that you could easily use to get your boss to hear what you have to say and really consider it. Versus if you walk in there and say I'm getting a razor, I'm quitting, You're kind of playing Russian roulette with your
career. Yeah, definitely.
I think this is, I mean this to me right here is like such a fundamental pillar of negotiation, especially when you're working with your realtor. And funny enough, I mean, I don't necessarily always see this actual thought process. I mean from a conceptual level, it makes sense. Give a little take a little, but here it feels like there's there's actual strategy behind every single component of the persuasion formula. Well, I think
people that are naturally persuasive like to be frank, you rob are a pretty persuasive guy, right? It's it's kind of easy to give in to you and give you what you want because you naturally use the tension formula and you naturally use the persuasion formula, but I create this for the people who don't have this natural skill, right? You can take it and you can make it into this five step system for whatever it is you're going to ask for and deliver the information and it works in an email, it works in a text message, it works on a phone call, it works when you're live in person. This like if you can get used to communicating in this rhythm, it makes it it makes you more likable, which really helps with your tension formula game.
Yeah, this is great, this is great advice, I'm gonna take this to my wife and I'm gonna say, hey, you know what, this is not an ideal scenario, but here's my solution, it's gonna be great. This is kind of like marriage advice to
actually, you know what I want to see rob, I'd like to see you put the persuasion formula into action right now in front of everybody over the situation where one of your Children put plato up their nose and your wife was the only one that was there to sort of fix it while we were recording.
Okay? So my wife, my wife texted me and she said, do you have a minute and I said not at this time, and then she said it's important, get down here right now and I said yes ma'am and I went down and her and I looked at each other and she said hey Isla put a piece of play doh in her, in her nose. And so we both acknowledged this was not going to be fun. And the only solution in that particular moment. Well there was two solutions. One of them was very elevated. One of them was a lot smaller solution. One was go to the E. N. T. But before we did that she called her her doctor friend, her her sister. But she got the advice to give her verse cpr where you basically have to like Hold down one Nostril blow air through the mouth, the mouth so that the other nostril clears the play doh it's not the blockage.
So basically I was like listen option one, we go to the E. N. T. But that is like a whole ordeal. I acknowledge that this sucks, but we gotta do this right now, let's try this solution. She said let's try it. And you know it was not a fun solution in the moment because my daughter had no idea what she was about to go through and we were holding her down and we did it and we got
the play doh out
okay but that was a better solution than having to go to the emergency room right? So how could you use
So let's say that that's your goal is to get your wife to try this awkward reverse cpr method. How could you use a persuasion formula to convey your
information? Well so
for me I was like listen I understand that this is not fun and
Now I'm saying converted into the five steps. Do you think you could do that?
Okay so one was acknowledging the situation. So for me I was like this is not gonna be fun regardless of of the outcome. To empathize with the other side. Empathizing that this is her baby. It's also my baby and that hey this you know as parents ever so often it's gonna be hard on us but it will be worth it three align yourself with the opponent in this one. Of course the opponent being my wife and I said look if you and I can do this and we can do it fast and concisely we can avoid a trip to the E. N. T. At the end of the day where the probably all closed for proposed a solution. I will hold down Isla. I will hold her down and hold her head down while you hold one nostril and blow through her mouth. And then five use logic to support why you believe it's a win for all parties.
Because if we do this it will work. It will probably work and it's probably a lot better than what the E. N. T. Is actually going to do because I don't know what devices or what things that they're gonna do but I would rather us be the one blowing like air through my child's mouth than a doctor than a random doctor. Actually I don't know if that's true but in this particular scenario in this reality and I think after I was like let's give it a shot and she's like all right I mean the worst comes to worst. I was like oh and the solution here if it doesn't work we'll go and she said okay great and we did it mucus and blue play doh came out and we're all the better for it.
That's good. Right? I think that's for the first attempt. That's pretty solid. Here's the way that I would have communicated if I was in your shoes. I know this must be really scary that our daughter snorted plato up her nose and you're worried about the long term effects or if this could be really damaging. You probably feel terrible because you were the one watching them and you were alone at the time because I was off working and you think this is your fault. But look this is not your fault. If I was in your shoes the same thing would have happened to me, you and I are parenting them together and you were carrying the slack because I wasn't there when this happened. What I'd like to do is this reverse cpr method so that we don't have to take her to the er at the end of the day and it will save us a lot of time. It will also give us a really funny story to talk about some day how he blew plato out of her nose. It'll build trust between her and us because she'll see that mom and dad can fix anything and it will help you and I to recognize that together we can solve problems without needing to get a doctor involved.
So, like, I just literally went down those five steps as I was saying it and I have a little bit more practice with this review because I've been negotiating with people for a really long time. But that is the idea behind the persuasion formula, It's it took me a long time. I still I still screw this up in my personal relationships more than what you think, right? I I I naturally do this when I'm negotiating for a client. But what I always attempted to do is just to skip right to number four, propose a solution. Here's what we're gonna do, here's what we're gonna do it, Get out of my way and let me go. But when I presented in this way, I always get better results,
well, I never thought that this would be so applicable to something that happened minutes before we started recording this podcast. Everybody, everybody at home, all the people that are like, get her to the she's fine, we did it. It's okay. It's all good, don't worry. My daughter is fine. I know there's a lot of people that are like, oh
boy, I'm sure you're not the first person that had a kid put play doh up their nose. I mean kids find ways to put everything up their nose.
It actually turned out that it was mostly just, she had a stuffy nose. The stuffy nose actually did its job and stop the plato from getting, getting up their natural
The body is a beautiful thing.
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So I think I'm
excited to get to triangle theory because you kind of touched on this with our negotiation tactic, um, you know, kind of working with the realtor. So can you explain a little bit more about what this is?
Yeah. Triangle theory is something that's one of the most commonly used negotiation tactics that, that we use on our team and probably anybody uses everywhere. And good negotiators are good at doing this. It is the idea of having an issue where you would normally be in conflict with another person. So say you and your client, let's say you're trying to take a listing and the person thinks their house is worth $1 million, but it's really worth $850,000. So you're telling them it's worth 50, they believe it's worth a million. The two of you are now clashing. And even if you win in that negotiation, the relationship gets damaged and it makes it very difficult from that point forward to have a positive experience for them. So the key is you create a third party, like the third point of a triangle, you align yourself with your client and you make that your common enemy. So in that case rather than me saying, look, I know more about real estate than you do. It's worth 8 50. Okay, now I'm in conflict with them.
If I say, hey, I think your house is worth a million dollars also and I'd love to sell it for a million dollars someday. I think we would be able to do that. But let's take a look at what the market is telling us. Do you see these other houses that are on the market? They all sold for somewhere between 800 and 875. That means the appraisals are gonna be coming in around this number. Do you also see how many houses are sitting on the market right now that are not selling that are priced above 900. These all compare really closely to yours. And even though your house is much more beautiful than those, the appraiser is not gonna look at it that way, they're going to say this house is worth right around 8 50. So though I would love to do what you're asking what clump can you pull out of this list that would show me that your house would be worth a million dollars. What I actually did there was, I created a common enemy in the market and then I also did it with the appraiser. So now I've sort of said we have all of these people that are stopping us from hitting our goal.
But I'm on your side and here's what I'm gonna do. If we get a low appraisal, I'm gonna take them these numbers and I'm gonna show them why I think they should be higher. And even though the market is showing us this is what your house should sell for. I'm gonna market it better than other people do. And I'm gonna try to get you 875 instead of 850 and you go through this list of showing them how all of these different opponents that we just created. I'm actually standing on your side against those people and that could apply with the hypothetical situation of the person who's selling grandma's house. If you just tell them that house is not worth enough, you're in conflict If you show them that the person who's buying this house didn't have their grandma living here, so they're not gonna value it as much as you did, even though to you, I do believe it's worth $500,000. I'm only able to give you 250 and here's why And I find myself doing this all the time, I will have our clients that say, Hey, this is how much we want to pay for the house and I go talk to the agent and there's 20 offers. So my client wants to pay 800, they already have offers over a million, right? I'll usually go to my clients say, hey, I really wanted to get this thing for you at 800,000. Unfortunately, they have 20 offers and the seller's don't care who's writing that check. They just care about how big the number on that check is.
And it's probably gonna need to be a million 25 if you actually want a chance. Do you want this house or you want to walk on it? No, we want it. But we just don't want to get taken advantage of. And then I'll go to the listing agent and I'll say, Hey, I know that the client wants a million 25 I think it's worth that. But my clients are just not pre approved to go that high. I can get him to a million 15. Right? Do you think we can make it work at a million 15? What if we do this or this? To make it to make it a little bit sweeter for you? So what I've done in a sense is I've gone to the listing agent, I've agreed with them that their house is worth the price they want, but they can't get it.
So I've sort of created my client in their eyes as the opponent. I've gone to my clients and I said, hey, this is what we're going to do for you. The opposition is all the other buyers that are out there looking for the house. We're competing against them. We're not competing against the seller and you're not actually taking their side. It's the way you're relaying the information that makes them feel comfortable with you. So where they understand your hands are tied in a sense like I, I tell people all the time in today's market, you're rarely ever negotiating against the seller. You're negotiating against the 14 other buyers that are all trying to buy that property. So there, you have to understand there's many components into making it work. And triangle theory is a way that you can read that information without getting the person who you want on your side to be in conflict with you.
Well yeah, I think a big pillar of this that you kind of touched on is that you're bringing your, allowing the other person instead of making them the opponent you're letting them scheme with you a little bit. Hey, if we do this, what do you think I'm gonna give you input? I'm gonna let you collaborate on a plan that I've already decided. But hey, if it's a good idea, I'll take it right? So like they feel involved, they feel like, hey, if I can actually land this and man, I'll be really proud of myself cause that would have been a really hard obstacle to overcome. And I think that's kind of, you know, that was very evident in the deal that we did because it was, you know, it was probably a tough one for the opposing realtor to really get through to the client and then actually getting an offer accepted. There's a little bit of pride of actually pulling something like that off to,
we had to get her to be our advocate in that scenario and no listing agent wants to have to go to her clients and say I got beat. So instead what we do is we coach them to go say, hey, we took a really good shot. We listed it for as high as we possibly could. We didn't get any buyers, but good news. I got a person that's still willing to pay more than I think anybody else will. Now she's aligned herself with them against us. It makes it easier for the other side too adopt the or to accept the offer that they didn't want. This is the same technique that we give people when we say, hey, if you're gonna live in a duplex and live in one side and rent out the other side, you don't have to tell your tenants that you own the property, you can get a property manager that manages it and they don't need to know that you're the person who owns it because if they know you own it, they're gonna feel much more comfortable not paying the rent on time. Uh, pushing the boundaries and you're like, that's my neighbor, I don't want to upset them. Well, triangle theory is a way of introducing the property manager, making that person the bad guy. And now boom, you don't have to worry about this. So you can know that you're being triangle theory when you ask somebody for something and they go, you know, I don't know.
Let me go check with my partner on that. Oftentimes the partner is a hypothetical person or doesn't have as much power as what they want you to believe they're buying themselves time. So like at car dealerships, this is notorious. That's what they'll do. Hey, the car's listen for 20,000, you say you want it for 14. What do they
always say? Let me go
talk to my manager and
ask, that's it. The
manager is President Triangle theory. That's exactly right. They're using triangle theory because they don't want to be in conflict with you and they'll come back and say the manager says, I can only give it to you for 17,000, right? They might not have been talking to the manager, they might just be walking in the back, you know, filling up a cup of coffee talking to their buddies and
tie. No, I'm the
manager. Okay, well, I think that makes a lot of sense. Let's keep this moving here. Think technique six. We call this surprising.
Yes. So here's a line from the book pricing is a way of shifting the value in a negotiation away from the other side and onto yours when used effectively, it removes leverage. The other side was holding against you and leaves them wanting what you have instead, if you don't learn to prize what you bring to the table in a negotiation, you will find yourself constantly on the defense. It's hard to move forward when you're always defending yourself. A simple example of prizing and action is when a client asks you to reduce your commission because they have something of value. David, I think you're a great agent and we want to have you represent us because we have a house to sell and a house to buy. We'd like to we'd like you to give us 25% of your commission because you'll be getting both sides in this case. The seller has created a frame where the commission is the prize and they have it. In order to get that prize. You have to give something up rather than argue why you're worth the commission. A strategy that leaves you on the defense and allows them to continue to poke holes in your value. It's better to shift the prize away from the commission and onto something you possess.
So in this case that now that's that's the part that was in the book in this case. What you'd want to say is, well, I have a list of buyers that other people don't have. Well, I have a skill with selling homes where I can make you more money than other people do. I have a marketing plan that's different than other agents. What you want to do is come up with something that you have. That's a value that the other side wants. What most people do is they end up trying to uh, defend themselves or defend why there, why they shouldn't have to give up part of their commission And the minute that somebody else makes the claim, hey, I want this commission and you're now trying to backpedal to keep what you have your on the defense, you're gonna lose what you actually want to switch it around. You would say, well, I could let somebody else sell your house. You'd probably lose about $50,000 because they don't do this thing that I do or They don't sell as many houses or they don't have the strategy that I have. So prizing is another negotiation technique when you feel someone's trying to take value away from you. So if you're looking to go by the car and the salesperson says, Hey, it's $17,000, that's what the car is going to cost. If you don't want it, somebody else will buy it, right?
Um, if they, if you don't have leverage because people are buying these cars all the time, there's not much you can do. But let's say you look out the window and you're like, there's 14 more Toyota cameras sitting out there and they've been there all month. I don't think anyone's buying this car, right, you would want to say something back. Like, well I could buy this car right now. You could have another one in here next week. I don't know how many of these other people are ready to buy a car today, but I am, it just has to be at this price and if we can't make it work at that price, I'll be forced to go find somewhere else that does want my money. I was hoping I could get this done with you guys today to save myself some time. You sort of shifted the prize away from the car that they have on to. The fact that you can close it right now when other people can't and it's not a guarantee in any scenario, but it is a way of sort of calling the bluff of the other side when you think that they're trying to take advantage of, you
know, I think that actually makes sense. I did that not too long ago. It's a lot more convoluted than we'll get into on this podcast. But it was the same type of deal where I want a specific thing about a vehicle I was buying. I had to talk to the, to the sales guy who came with his, uh, one of those like fake disguises, the big nose and the fake glasses
came out with one of the things.
Yeah. Came with one of those. I was like, are you familiar with just the sales guys talking to me, but I did end up saying like, Hey, I want this and this. He said no. And I was like, well, here's the deal. I will buy this car right now. And if not, I'll just order an Uber. I was like, I drove here without a car. Like I came in an Uber, I'll order an Uber and leave right now or alternatively, what I'd prefer is to Uber started not to Uber and buy the car and we did end up closing a deal that looked a lot different than the original deal. But yeah, that I think that the pricing, that little tactic right? There was an example of prizing like I will do this right now And not only show them that I'm not bluffing, but Hey, go look outside my car is not there. I would like to drive away in your car.
Can we work something out?
Yeah. A lot of the times when you're the realtor representing your client, you're trying to create your client or something client has as the prize. This is why all cash offers and to win. They don't come with contingencies. So the listing agent may say, well, we have other offers that are higher What you want your team to come back and say if you're the cash person is yeah, but can they close in 12 days. Can they go with no loan contingency, no appraisal contingency. Like, can are they guaranteed like we are in that case the prize is the certainty that the all cash buyer represents not the highest price. And the same would be true if you were the person representing a client who who who doesn't have all cash. You want your agent to go in there and say, Hey, they may be able to close in 12 days, but what is 18 days matter to your client right? And yeah, we're not paying all cash. We're paying with some of our cash and some of the bank's cash but cash is cash, right? It doesn't matter that we have a loan contingency.
You can talk to Leonard. We already have loan approval, right? You're trying to now present what your client has as the prize. And this this particularly comes into play when you sense the other side trying to take away your value.
Well, awesome man. Well I think we got one more here to round this one out and you call this the tier system T I E R not T E A R Although I am tearing up with joy from, from getting a master class from David Greene himself.
Very nice. Alright, I'm gonna read a little paragraph out of the book for this with you. The tier system is a structure I designed to help address fomo. Fear of missing out in clients. We had trouble committing out of the worry, there's something better out there. So if you're listening to this and you've ever tried to buy a house, you understand what the fomo is when you're like, I like the house, but what if I get something better? This occurs most commonly with buyer clients who find a house that works for them but feel they might find a better one if they keep looking, should they find it better when the same problem occurs and the cycle continues. That's how fomo works. In order to overcome this, you need to help create a framework where the client understands there are no better options out there for them than the one that they've just found in pitch anything author or in cloth describes how the midbrain receives information and evaluates it within a social construct. This part of the brain wants to take the information it receives and find some way to compare it to other information. In order to decide if the stimulus is good or bad by evaluating if it is better or worse than other stimulus. The tier system helps me satisfied the mid brains concerns while also eliminating options from the client to choose from.
Every buyer starts off wanting the perfect house at the lowest price in the best area. It's only after seeing these houses don't exist that buyers will adjust their expectations to realistic levels. Amateur agents accomplished this by showing houses to the client over and over and over until the client finally realizes it. Top producers accomplish this before they ever leave the office. So in pitch anything. One of my favorite books or in cloth talks about how information tends to be received through three different parts of the brain. The first is the midbrain, or sorry, the first is the croc brain than the midbrain than the neocortex. The croc brains job is to take stimulus and ask one question, how could this kill me? So you hear a loud noise? The first thing we all do is jump, none of us go, oh my God, did you hear that loud sound? Santa must be coming down the chimney. Give me presents.
I'm so happy. Your first instinct is always that's gonna kill me. Once you realize you're not gonna die, you hear a loud sound and nothing terrible happens. The mid brain kicks in to try to make sense of that stimulus in relation to a social setting or other forms of stimulus that could be happening at the same time. So if I'm at my house in the middle of the night and I live alone and I hear breaking glass in the kitchen, my crock brain wakes me up, I jump and I probably get more scared. There's no reason Glass should be breaking in the kitchen when I live alone at 3:00 AM, but that same exact sound. If I'm in a busy restaurant, I jump when I hear the sound, you see everyone do that in restaurants and then they go, the waiter probably dropped a couple of glasses and that's what that was. That's normal. That's what your midbrain does is it looks at the social setting and says based on what I'm seeing around me, Is this good or is this bad? The last part of your brain is called the Neocortex? And that's the part that looks at logic and reason and all the things that we think make everybody make decisions. And that's one of the problems with bad communicators is they deliver information to your Neocortex before your croc brain has decided that it's safe.
So you sit down with an agent and they say, let me tell you about all the houses that I've sold. And let me tell you about how much I know about real estate, but you still haven't figured out if you trust this person or not, you think they're a used car salesman, right? You don't want to hear about all the great deals they have on cars. If you don't trust them, they haven't satisfied your crock brain. The for a realtor. One of the things they can do is they can show their clients all the houses that are on the market in their price range before they go take them to see something. Um, and then they create a tier system. Like, hey, here is the house that would work perfect for you, here's a house that has some of the things that you would like, but not all of them and here's a house that has one thing that you like, but it's lacking in the rest of them. We're gonna try to get that top property. But if we aren't able to get it because 25 other people want it, would you be okay with this property that satisfies most of what you want? And then if they can't get that one, the question becomes, is it better off to buy this house that that keeps you from renting and has the ability to be a rental property in the future. But it's not in the best location.
It's not in the best kitchen. It doesn't have most of what you were hoping for. The question is, is it better than having nothing? And if you can present them that information in a way that allows them to keep their hopes alive that next year they could get that middle to your house and the year after that, they could get that top to house. They don't feel like they're losing their dream and settling for something that they don't like. If you just tell them, hey, you can't afford that house, this is all you got, take it or leave it. They're gonna probably hold on to that hope that they can get something better because they're midbrain doesn't believe that there's nothing else out there that is better than this house. You typically have to show them what's available for them and what they could realistically get to get their midbrain to be quiet and say, ok, I understand I'll accept the next property. And the tier system is what I use when I create a tier structure, here's what we really want, here's what we hope we could get and here's what we would be willing to get if we couldn't get anything else and then create a path where they see they can get the properties that they really want in future.
Man, that is really, really good. This is genuinely like my real estate journey. It feels like especially when you're trying to buy a house right to to live in. You know, I think every first time Homebuyer probably goes through this where we all want what we can't afford and we don't realize it until we start looking for houses and then we finally find one and we get outbid and then we get bummed because we're like dang and then what you start doing is you start lowering your expectations but kind of more in a negative way and you start settling and you're like all of a sudden this uh this house that was on a busy road now it's all of a sudden cute because it's your only option and then by the time you finally get to that house where it's accepted, you own it and you're like, okay, yeah, that's not exactly what we wanted. Whereas if we had kind of laid out this tier system that you're talking about like what's ideal, what's probably gonna happen and what's realistic if you kind of have that approach to it and you you do have somewhat of a of a plan in place for how to get what you want. Eventually then I think you can really look at evaluating deals a lot a lot more positively because you know in this market I think the the dream deal it's not gonna just land in front of your desk right? Like you you have to really, I don't wanna say settle but you do have to start setting expectations and have a plan for how to get what you truly want.
Yeah. And I'd say in this market sometimes the house that you settled for with air quotes becomes the dream deal two years later. And this is one of the reasons why negotiation is needed with your client because they don't know the market as good as the realtor does. Um it's often the case with your seller who thinks their house is worth $1 million $800,000. If you just go in there and say your house is not worth $1 million, you don't know what you're doing. They're going to go to the other agent, you're gonna lose the deal. If you go in there and say the cops show your house is worth 800, That's where the bottom tier would be. But we're gonna try to get 8:50-based off of this information. That's where the probable tier would be. And what we're really gonna shoot for is 925. That would be the pie in the sky. Best case scenario.
They're not gonna get that 925 unless some miracle happens. But it allows the part of their mind that doesn't want to give up on the hope to stay alive, right? So I will often right into a listing agreement. We will list the house at 9 25 for the first two weeks. And if we haven't accepted an offer within two weeks we're gonna drop the price to 8 50. And if it sits there for 30 days without an offer we're gonna put it back at 800 which is what the comps were showing. And that's a solution where the client gets to feel like they took their shot. They didn't just give up on their dreams. But I don't have to worry about them setting a baseline at 9 25. And now I'm trying to sell $800,000 house for 9 25. And they're gonna blame me instead of their decision to list it that high. And these this system pops up in a lot of different times in life where you want somebody to understand like you can get like let's say someone says I want to be the ceo of the company, it doesn't make sense to go in on your first day of work and apply for the job of the ceo you may have to create a tier system and work your way up that system.
We are used to doing that in everything in life. Real estate really shouldn't be any different.
Wow, wow, wow man, I feel like I just, I was front row to to your ted talk right here man, thank you so much for sharing
this. Well, thank
you for that. I'm this book was probably the most fun one too, right? I really do actually. I did a ted talk and it was about how you build skills, which is funny because skill is the name of this book and that's something I'm passionate about. I really like learning to be good at things and sort of like dissecting it and reverse engineering and figuring out what does it take to be good at something. So I I gotta say, I think you did a pretty good job interviewing me here and letting me run with a lot of this.
Yes. You know, the one thing that I really wanted to ask was you know, what part of your childhood were you pulling from when you wrote skill?
No, that was just the frustration of trying to learn how to be a real estate agent when there's hardly any good mentors out there that can teach you and learn everything the hard way and wanting to make the path easier for everyone after me. So if you have a loved one that works as a real estate salesperson, please do them a favor and get them sold in skill. Uh It is such a ridiculously hard industry, they're not telling you a lot of the rejection they're facing in the disappointment and the lack of confidence that they actually have. It's brutal trying to make a living in our industry and these resources would do them a lot of good. So even if you're not an agent, I think getting books like these four agents will do wonders for them and they will end up loving you for it.
I 100% agree and just a reminder for everybody. It's not quite out yet, but you can preorder this book right now at bigger pockets.com slash skill. Um Well, awesome dude. Well, is there anything else that you want to leave us with about this before we wrap up today's episode?
Well, I use these skills in my own investing business. So while I learned them as a real estate agent and now real estate sort of team owner, I still use them in deals like what we're buying together rob. So if people want to invest with us, they can go to invest. David Green dot com Register there and we can let you guys know about the deals that we have and the terms that we're going to be offering. You can also follow me online at David Green 24 and I would just love to get some comments with what people think about the book. There really aren't books written like this for real estate agents. Every time I release a book, you secretly just cross your fingers and hold your breath, hoping that it doesn't suck terribly. That's like every time this happens, I know like that's kind of the cliche line with the movie directors is they're like, oh, Christopher Nolan panics every time I made trash this movie is horrible. And then you wait to see if it's gonna get good reviews. So I'd really appreciate it. People would give me a review.
Oh, it's gonna be great man. Not even worried. I've read, I've read the very fundamental book in my real estate investing, which, you know, I quoted it earlier and you're like, what? You actually read it by rehab, rent refinance, repeat that. You're a good writer man. And I think you break it down for people super super easily so that people can actually digest some of these concepts. So thanks again man, If anybody wants to find me on the, on the interwebs on the, on the Youtube, you can find me at rob built on Youtube, you can find me at rob built on instagram. If you want to follow me on Tiktok, You can follow me at rob built oh, and just a further reminder, I will never ask you to send me Bitcoin or invest in forex. Please, please do not ever send me any Bitcoin. I will never
ask for that.
We have some fake account issues going on. That's why we're throwing in those disclaimers. How many messages would you say you get a day rob of someone saying, Hey, did you know you have a fake
account? Oh man, a
Lot dude. Just going to Tiktok, there's like 25 Alito's rob built with like a zero in it. It's just, it's so frustrating. And then they've sent me screenshots like someone stole my handle on that stole, they just snagged rob built on telegram and he's like, sounds like me. It's very creepy. So uh yeah, just never, I'll never ask you to send me a message on
thanks for that. Great job rob. Let me get us out of here. This is David Greene for rob often imitated but never duplicated oboe, solo signing out. Mhm
Yeah, thank you. Come on.