Treasure: Decentralized App-Chain for the Metaverse - John and Karel, Ep. 211 - Transcripts

September 06, 2022

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If you’re a gamer you must have thought it’d be nice if you could transfer your in-game resources from one game to the other. Well, you finally can with composable resources in Treasure’s game ecosystem.    Treasure is building the...


Ladies and gentlemen gentlemen, welcome to the Block Crunch podcast. They go to podcast for investors and builders in crypto and before we get started, just a reminder for you guys out there. The Block Crunch podcast is intended for informational purposes only. Neither the host nor its guests or licensed financial advisors and nothing discussed should be construed as financial advice views held by blah crunches, guests are their own and sponsorship messages do not constitute financial advice or endorsement with that out of the way. Let's jump right in now before we get started with today's episode, I've got some great news for you now. A lot of you have been asking for how I analyze projects that I bring on the show. That's why I decided to create Block V. I. P. To share with you all the heavy research that goes on behind the scenes now. Every week or so our team prepares an in depth research memo with things like sector analysis, technical concepts made simple in depth, competitive breakdown and even interactive models. So you can learn about the most important projects before they become important.

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I. P. Or click the link in the show notes below to sign up. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Block Crunch podcast. Now, a year ago in ft weekly trading volume this month was over a billion dollars according to the block. But today that number is at $46 million. So it's really interesting to see joe just how fast entire crypto space seems to have shrunk, but at the same time we still have a lot of builders who are super excited about the space, which makes me really excited about this space and one such project that remains especially bullish on the metaverse dream and is doubling down in this arena is treasure down now. Treasure! That was a crypto twitter darling earlier this year launching with the support of angels like myself funds like one K eggs and a large community of fans before any investors even got involved. And despite the bear market, they have bigger plans than ever as well to create the largest shared resource for crypto games, NFC communities and meta verses and even spinning up their own chain on cosmos, which we'll touch on a little bit later. So to join us to discuss their plans, what treasure does and how people can get involved. I'm really excited to have john and carol from Treasure down on the show today in the long awaited episode.

So john carroll, welcome to the


Thanks for having us.

Absolutely. Now, just to get it started, can you tell us a little bit about what do both of you do at Treasure?

Um, so I co founded treasurer last fall with someone named Garp who just had a baby, so he's not here. But um, I work in strategy. Um they're currently Treasury

awesome and Coral, I joined in in March as a kind of head of operations of sorts. Um, so just overseeing a lot of growth, kind of scaling the company and organization as a whole. You know, working across partnerships, marketing and things like that. A lot of hats.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm really excited to have you guys on because I've been following the project even, you know, way before invested. And one thing that really stood out to me is just how passionate the community is behind Treasure. I think something really struck a chord with people out there and we're gonna get to that in a bit. But for people who are just starting to learn about what exactly true the dow is, you know, I will be surprised if, you know, they have trouble understanding the scope of what you guys are working on because, you know, it looks like a game, it looks like its own metaverse. It has its own N. F. T marketplace, it has elements of the dow. So can you help the newcomers out there in layman's term? You know just understand exactly what is treasure tao.

Yeah so um we're focused on becoming a decentralized video game publisher um somewhere in between a publisher and a platform. Um And the way it works is we use tokens and shared resources to create the underpinning for infrastructure not only at the um defy level but also at the gaming level. So we view this as um a large cross game economy that can be imagined by the community and then built inter linkages between them. What happens there are primary token as the ecosystem is called magic. Is that more and more games and builders incorporate this um than the games and communities can become aligned through those interoperable resources and then they shared this larger network that remains permission lys because anyone can incorporate magic into their world and build with it. But creating an aligned incentives and this extensible cross game infrastructure allows us to scale the vibrant community that you were you were referring to where um you know all the royalties earned by organization. Get reinvested into new types of builders and new projects. And um this is this flywheel decentralization allows us to go from a treasure are aloof derivative. Last fall when we just released several cards to we now have an in house game studio and Um you know I can talk to some of our our growth metrics but basically we just wanted to create Web three innovation that would allow for simple and meaningful experiences for builders and um yeah so we call this sort of proof of imagination where the community owns gaming um They have community ownership over the I. P. And also the infrastructure and um we launched this not really knowing where it would go. It was a fair launch Fremont project couldn't have had smaller ambitions for it.

But the community just showed up to this thesis that the meta versus something that we have to build um and it will resemble more of a story than a corporate VR product.

And just to add a little bit you know I think when we think about this game publisher or console it's really this kind of like ecosystem stack and so it kind of comprises these three layers you know one being the cartridges. So in the same way that something like a Nintendo has cartridges. You know these are the games that are either built by us or by kind of our ecosystem builders. Um You know today we have nine games and titles to which we're kind of building in house. Um You know it's this kind of community layer that sits on top of that. So you know really the social layer the players the contributors that you know really kind of underlie a lot of that um And then all the kind of infrastructure points that john mentioned. So it's this kind of shared economy that backs magic. You know, we have the tooling, the resources that kind of part of the broader ecosystem and you know, today we have a marketplace and a mm and we can double click on all these things.

Yeah, we're definitely gonna touch on all those different pieces of the cartridges, which you mentioned this idea called The Bridge World as well as the marketplace. But before I move on to that, there's one really interesting comment that I think, john you made in the last interview with someone else, you basically said that which the metaverse is a story that communities right together rather than, you know, anything about gaming or graphics. And I don't know if you guys remember this project back then, I think 2017 2018 called Hilarious and they were trying to piece together this sci fi storyline through Blockchain, but they were, you know, way too early for that time. But ever since then, you know, we interviewed them on the show, we've been waiting for a project that's trying to, you know, retouch on that concept. So, I'm really curious about what you meant by that when you said that, you know, meta versus the story that communities right? And it's not about the gaming or the graphics.

I'll have to check that project out. I've never heard of that. That's really interesting. I thought that was the first example of this but yeah in my mind this is all just coming from loot which was sort of a lightning bolt into the space where um instead of the community just being offered this product and then they just passively consume it. Um This is N. F. T. S. Allow us to create um types of I. P. And you know um franchises that scale to the level of um gaming studios and I imagine there'll be film studios and things like that that come from this. So it's the community sort of agreeing on what exists and then using um crypto networks to basically codify elements of the narrative.

Um And so the way we approach it is not through um story directly but through resources. So you know the our thesis is that these pfp communities and entities in general like whatever the metaverse is there will be different guilds and groups within it and they'll interact over resources. So if you write the resource struggle, our communities come together to find a way that they interact with each other. Then that goes from this sort of just being a nebulous story where everyone is writing fan fiction to an actual on chain world. And we see it as building out game mech mechanisms and economies that actually exist in an immutable way um that can become solid infrastructure so this wasn't possible. Um you know formerly on the internet when it was just fan fiction as I mentioned but now we're moving to where these things function as real economies and that's what I think the metaverse


yeah, correct, anything to add there as well,

Yeah, I mean, I I think well john captured, you know, I think almost everything, you know, I think the big part where, you know, I think as we look at, you know, the tie into even what kind of treasure has been looking to two powers, you know, I think taking these mechanisms and being able to, you know, bring a lot of this and, and kind of connected back to just the creation of right and you know, in some ways and you know, something that one of our partners says a lot is, you know, now making a game is a game in itself and and so as part of this kind of transition and you know, really the building blocks that are now kind of available at our disposal, you know, we can take all these different elements that that weren't, you know, possible before bring it on chains, you know, and and have this engaged community that is, you know, very much kind of at the core of what we do, which is, you know, very much bottom up, community driven community led different initiatives around lower storytelling art, that then, you know, you can bring back to, you know, the products that you're developing really altogether,

Yeah, and I really like that, you guys brought up this example of loot because in the early days especially I think treasure was very much compared with loot. And for listeners who are not aware loot was a collection of N. F. T. S. That were literally just you know a series of text against a plain background. You know describing items that you typically finding a fantasy game I think like maybe bronze swords or chain mail and so on. And the idea was that other people would take these N. F. T. S. And build an actual game around it versus having one company.

You know build up the entire game. And we actually explored this project back in episode 163 for those who are interested. Um But just to kind of come back to this idea of loot and treasure you know is treasure in any way related to Lewd or how has inspired the treasure project?

Our whole ethos was based on route and we initially imagined ourselves is just to be a complimentary um set to um loot. My my thinking at the time was you know this is a really cool way to get the community to invent a world together but they have no mechanism to decide what is true in that world and that's what tokens do. That's what they do for block chains. Um And then that's what they do for Taos and the social networks and the community decided to go a different direction and um chose a gold. So everything that has happened in treasure sense um you know initially was just us sort of frankly scrambling to create a metaverse because we intended um this token to fit into theirs but then we discovered that we sort of had this formula where oh this can be a cradle on which many gain builders and um N. F. T. Builders and story writers can come in and create something around magic. So it was a happy accident that way.

That's really interesting. So you're saying that treasure you know when when you release your own token the magic token that token was supposed to be the in game token for the loot game but then they decided to go with their own token instead.

Yeah there was there was loot a gold and treasure and they were all using this um that framework that dom came up with of the card that just has a bunch of text on it and uh that's the only way that these worlds were connected. And so my thinking was okay well let's just create a resource where if these are stories that communities developing then all these worlds are just using one primary unit of account or you know utility token, whatever magic was. And the loot formula to me was so obviously going to create a community around it because it was just a perfect playbook for um community building that I'd come from a defi background and was getting into N. F. T. S. At the infrastructure level. So immediately recognizes that as an infrastructure um possibility where let's use everything we know about um tokens and how that they anchor systems and do that for loot.

That that's really really interesting and um correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you guys have diverged a lot from loot right now so there's nothing to do with loot but when it comes to treasure, is that right?

Yeah. We still talk to their team tim Shell is awesome. He's doing a great job in the verse. Um They're on a different layer to our realm is uh their realms is there I guess the biggest game in the verse right now. So they're on Stark nets that makes it kinda hard for us. But you know those those guys are awesome. We talked to him frequently and hope to work together down the road.

Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. Since you guys are built on orbit from which we'll talk a lot to talk about it in a little bit as well. But I'd like to kind of come back to the core concept of treasure because the scope is so broad and I think in some of the blog posts you guys described treasure as a gaming console and within this console there are a few pieces which is rich world cartridges and trove all connected by the magic token, but before we dive into the individual pieces and what they are. Um you know, if I'm a game developer, I'm someone trying to build a game or metaverse listening to this right now, you know, how do I benefit from all these pieces in treasure by being a part of treasure?

Yeah, so I think um we've moved out of the era of PT where there's individual games. Um these projects have their own tokens and the builders are completely isolated from anyone else. Um this model has just failed. And even for well intentioned and temporary, temporarily successful projects, they end up losing a ton of liquidity to their token. And you know, there's countless examples of this where they produced a great product and great game, but they couldn't achieve enough liquidity um to keep this thing going and there's just consequences to trying to build an isolation. And this is exactly what we've learned, observing ethereum and even decentralized finance is that it makes way more sense to be a node in a larger network than to try and be the network yourself. So concretely, what that means inside treasure is that if you're one game, a large system and you come in and say you've been building a game for two or three years and you have no idea whether you're gonna be able to build a community, which is the hard, one of the hardest parts of crypto is an intention economy or if you're gonna be able to find product market fit when you come into an ecosystem like this the magic token connects all these games. So it's not like a centralized video game publisher like Nintendo deciding okay we will um ordain this title as part of like our ecosystem and pay the builders you can just be connected um to this and then their provides a lot of benefits. And the first is that you know you achieve a community instantly off the bat. And then the way treasure functions is across game economies we can actually farm attention from one game to another. And we're not only doing that. Um Like through twitter posts were doing that on a literal level where these games share resources and share economic loops so we can feed attention across games to new projects to get users interested in them.

And we see the marketplace interacting there where you know things like open c. They've taken this horizontal approach and we want to take a very vertical approach where over time there will be accumulated history on the marketplace. Of all the things that you've done and enjoyed it will be very gaming. Um And the specific kind of N. F. T. Focus and with those users in the funnel you know this ability to promote games across the ecosystem will be very very attractive. Um two builders but beyond that you know just at the very core web three level because that's sort of like a web to value um premise. And then we see this as something much more radical is that when you build on chain game economies these are mechanisms that exist forever that anyone can hook into. Um And this makes building um much um it's you can achieve it much more quickly. So it's not just incorporating the magic token. I mean a lot of what we've been doing in bridge world over the last year we can talk about is building sophisticated ways to farm N.

F. T. S. Um to value them relative to each other. And this is things that people can then link into these on chain mechanisms. Another example is so small brains was R. N. F. T. Where um it's you know pretty silly project where you get a monkey with a head and then you stake it and it's like you goes up every day and then once the I. Q. Reaches 50 points it's uh the head would actually get bigger.

We were really proud of this. No one had done it in evolving N. F. T. Before um in crypto. And um we're just taking this to the limit. And you know imagine if uh these monkeys, their heads are controlled by something called the school contract. Now imagine if there was a school contract that anyone could hook into permission Leslie and it's not controlling the head size of the monkey. Maybe it's like some sort of skill metric. Um Now you can create a very huge games across all the N. F. T.

Community. It would function like a decentralized mmorpg where they're just sharing mechanisms and then the builders can trust that their characters are roughly comparable because of um it's being controlled by a single um yeah contract or yeah measurement. Um So we're just scratching the surface of what this all means. But we really think that this will be like you know even when traditional game publishers they'll see the advantage of being a part of a network. And then also just um crypto natives will realize wow this is the exact same thing as defi where it uh it makes building and achieving liquidity so much faster and more sustainable.

And and we've been spending a lot of time just working with with builders. And and so I think you know I think a lot of the value proposition really built around that you know spending some time with us is you know I think it's really around that kind of player base you know being able to tap into that, it's being able to tap into. You know I think a lot of the just like you know crypto native like very thoughtful novel applications of like what web three can enable within gaming and doing it within this kind of broader ecosystem. And so you know we've spent a lot of time just thinking through what a kind of like incentive sort of, it could look like such that, you know, everyone can really benefit from just longer term alignment, you know, with magic with our token with, you know, all the kind of different resources and mechanisms that, you know, jOHN is kind of describing, you know, how can this kind of benefit the broader ecosystem as a whole? And you know, I think we're very much in the mindset of, you know, this kind of rising tide will lift all boats and you know, by creating a stronger kind of network and stronger ecosystem, you know, all of the games that, you know, someday, you know, kind of make their way onto treasure, you know, we'll be able to benefit from all these different things.

Yeah. And it's so interesting that you guys are kind of starting from the base layer basically trying to build infrastructure for other people to build games, but there are so many pieces when it comes to, you know, infrastructure, right? You could be building a gaming engine, you know, like unity or unreal. You could be building maybe defy rails for, you know, in game purchases. So how do you decide what to build out? Like what are some of the significant market gaps out there that you guys identified and said, hey, we're gonna build something here because there's a huge gap here and a lot of deaths are telling us that this is what we need right now.

Yeah, absolutely. Um yeah you're right. There is like you have to make a decision between the visual and the underlying infrastructure, the economic infrastructure and the thing I loved about loot and was so intuitive to me was that you know, it's risky to to try and produce one type of visual representation for a metaverse and these are going to be very ephemeral and we don't know anything about it, we know a ton about defi and these will be permanent on chain things. Um and if they're successful, you know, they can be immutable contracts that are used for decades to build all kinds of web three games and systems and then the more entrenched they become um you know, it's like trying to um for swap at a certain point, there was a moment of time to do that, but that's long gone now and um you know, we think that there's really neat things you can do at the infrastructure level that will be crucial for all of um crypto gaming, you know, um My personal belief is that we're moving out of this phase where N. F. T. S are dominated by flippers, hoping that they've invented a million dollar N. F. T. For point oh three um or whatever and the marketplaces are gonna change also underneath the hood. So we're going to go from this highly speculative phase of hoping that we've won the watery to these are real products um that people are paying much less money for and they're not expecting a return on it. Um It's just an input to a product underneath the hood to the marketplace.

You know, you see pseudo swap, this was a 0 to 1 innovation in my mind because um success are like the highest volume N. F. T. S. Will be nearly fungible. Um they will be skins and in game assets and treasures so they should be traded out of liquidity pools. And what's gonna end up happening is that, you know, all these professional N. F. T. Traders that have just sat around open C. All day um flipping these and then occasionally getting lucky and then the luckiest ones that it's we're gonna see market makers coming around. And if they can't adapt to this world where, you know, their liquidity providers for these very high volume, high velocity pools and then they make money through the economic infrastructure as opposed to um flipping and hobbling.

Um You know, that's what happened with defi and why most Bitcoin has got left behind. They didn't understand that the industry was changing and required an increasing level of sophistication to profit from it. So you know, gaming in N. F. T. S and all this, all the innovation is gonna be happening economic level in the next few years and that's where that's the sandbox we want to play in.

Yeah, I love that you used the term 0 to 1 to describe pseudo because that's like, we actually wrote a memo for some of our V I. P subscribers back in june and the exact title was why Sudo, hmm is 0 to 1 moment for N F T s And I absolutely agree with what you have to say there. And I'm curious if you have anything to add there as well.

Yeah, I'd say like all of those things that john is describing, like that's like, you know, like moving the needle forward and like, you know, seeing how we can really like shape the industry from a treasure perspective and kind of creating that base layer. I think if I go back to your original question of like, you know, how do we decide what to build and what to kind of like focus on and spend our time on. I mean there's, there's so many different things and so it's like a kind of careful balance of, you know, you know, in what way do we really kind of like lean in and lean forward, which, you know, john is spending a lot of his time on, just kind of thinking through like what's next? There's another part of it, which, you know, I think, um, you know, as we've built a lot of the kind of base layer of the infrastructure, you know, the magic kind of economy that backs all of it, you know, that was also just creating the proofs of concepts to, you know, leverage all of these different things and so something like a bridge world and something like a small brain or small verse, you know, like these were, you know, sets of I PS brands, titles, games that, you know, leverage the things that we we're building so that we can kind of see if it worked. Um and then also kind of, you know, put us in the builders seat as well. And so, you know, over time we've brought in other cohorts of games and and you know, external kind of studios builders who have come into the mix and so, you know, we're spending a lot of time just, you know, learning a bit more about, you know, what their needs are and you know, I think now that we have a really kind of great, I'd say foundation to really, you know, springboard off from Um you know, is leading into a lot of these different elements. So there's an innovation component and then there's, you know, maybe some of this like more operational kind of like even distribution, you know, how do we go to market? How do we, you know, kind of advance and support a lot of our builders now at this stage of where we are and so definitely as we move into the rest of this year and and you know, 20, there's gonna be, I'd say, you know, two of these different, I'd say ships kind of moving in parallel.

Yeah. And speaking of ideas that you've got, you guys picked to work on. One of the first big things that you guys shift is this thing called Bridge World. Um So can you guys explain what is bridge World and maybe some examples of games and how they have, you know, integrated with it.

Yeah, absolutely. Um so Bridge World started off as after I mentioned, we moved from a lute derivative to realizing, okay, we could actually build our own ecosystem. Let's let's try this. We started developing the story, the native metaverse to treasure. And in this world there are these characters called legions and their principal aim is to acquire magic because magic is the thing that powers their world. Um so they they quest for treasures, they use those treasures to craft um you know, uh ways to earn magic and then they were summoned me more legions. And, and over time as we were building out the code base for this, we made it, you know, the world got more and more complex. So initially it started where you just steak um your loot card and you earn magic and then you had your legion and you could just take your region and and magic. And then we introduce quests and now we've moved into um this harvester space. And so the way harvesters work. Um so you can think of them as giant staking pools, but they have to be activated by lots of people. Um So it's it's very difficult um for one person to be able to own the entirety of a harvester, it would just cost too much because there's tens of millions of magic and different N.

F. T. S. Um currently in these but so groups of people guilds have to cooperate um to craft harvester parts to latch onto these um Harvesters which we think of like as enormous mechanical animals just walking around bridge World. And then these parts allow them to start um diverting um magic back to the legions like rain catchers. And so harvesters are staking pools that are a little more complex. We didn't want it to be paid to win. So you have to constantly you have to build them with others and you have to maintain them. Um And then soon people will be able to harvest corruption points and actually um um lob it against uh you know others to take over their harvester or weaken them. And we're doing this because you know you know the major outcome in D5 was just plutocracy and once you control the network you can just sit there and nothing changes. And we wanted to make the opposite where you know the whole loop thesis was that this is a world that the community builds actively and so you have to maintain involvement and um stay up to date on bridge world. But so that was sort of that was like this still this view we were operating in of, okay, this is bridge world as a game, but it was pretty insular because our goal was magic is going to be the thing that connects the entire web three gaming ecosystem.

How do we get there and increase the circulation of magic? So then as we were talking about harvesters, um, are economists came up with this great idea and was like, let's say we have dozens of these things. Initially we're gonna start with one or two, we started with two to just kind of test this out. But harvesters can actually be other games and not just like games in the treasure ecosystem. You know, if if someone builds a great mmorpg somewhere in crypto we can partner with this um, organization and say, hey, like we want this format to be one of the harvesters and then your players can earn magic and then you know, you can even do it with marketplace metrics where um, to help new projects that have a really explosive burst onto the scene and maybe that they are earning the magic from the harvesters there. So what, what this means is that treasure can just kind of be the underpinning to lots of different games and rather than these builders going off and try to build isolated liquidity and succeed on their own. You know, this becomes something where if Nintendo has a failed title, um, the organization continues and um you just the same thing with the harvester. If a game fails, you just slowly retire it in the least destructive way to those holders or if it becomes outdated, you do the same and then you ramp up the emissions too. Um the successful products and going forward. We're gonna explore um yeah, this approach to gaming where we're actually just the nexus between those things because our view of treasures metaverse is where the bridge between um lots of different ones rather than

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Or sanctioned countries today. And one last thing, one exciting opportunity is their competitions. The most recent tear in the $10,000 equity tier have won over $95,000 in rewards and you can get started with as low as $500 in equity to compete for prices. So if you're already trading might as well get paid to do it. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, I highly recommend that you head on over to Dy DX dot exchange to learn more and I thank them for sponsoring this episode, it sounds like uh the primary objective of the bridge road game right now is accruing more magic tokens either by uh you know the initial way of kind of mining for these tokens by stating your your your N. F. T. S. Or by you know building these harvesters. Um So doesn't that sound a little bit like PTE where you're you know the primary use case for the token is printing it as inflation to incentivize people, you know, how is that sustainable over time.

Um So if you think about the one year vision of where we're going, which is that you know let's say so we have our own chain. Um We have lots of games on it and the way people are able to onboard um they can quickly by magic, they don't need any other token besides magic and they're just there to game. And so this is this is where we think gaming is going, it's moving towards ecosystems and each new participant is less and less a speculator and more of a player and they will like the ability to contribute to the narrative but they're not doing it hoping for giant returns. So the early magic farmers were bootstrapping this network um that's capable of building um Yeah like a growing product suite and you know magic will move from something Pts kind of just um circular. It's similar to the the governance token phenomenon and defy where you know the network was valuable because you get a token but the token was viable because of the network and um you know instead of just doing this kind of the staking game, we want to move to a productive use of magic in the ecosystem. So you know with a chain like that's the best example of how the token um the people who hold large quantities of it have to be using using it to contribute to the security and growth of the network but also with a M. M's. You see like a token that is the base pair there um there's someone who's taking a risk with their capital um of incurring impermanent boss to help. Um yeah provide liquidity to the entire ecosystem. So we're building out an A mm with magic um as the base pair with all of our partners the idea of being you know if they're successful game then they will receive more magic emissions or grants. So they will benefit from um the growth of this token which they not only get more of but like they can active actively shape. Um it's a mission and its dynamics and you know game builders can't do that with it's something that um you know is controlled by someone else but this is an organization token that we can finally tune to support us as we need.

Um So yeah so magic started off where people were acquiring lots of it and our community like um the really core community from the early days understands this vision where you know, um they are doing it because they're building out infrastructure with us

and and and there's there's I'd say you know, another piece of it, which you know, I think as these builders, the games and the players look to accumulate magic, you know, a lot of it is for productive kind of uses. And so a lot of what we've seen kind of arise is, you know, this kind of emergence of of games as guilds, you know, where you know, they are looking to accumulate magic but more so because you know, it's a lot of it is also being used within their own kind of native game loops as well. And so you know, some games are using magic at the core, you know, including kind of our first party titles and you know, the game called Battle Fly. Other games are, you know, they have their own native tokens as well, but you know, they can still use magic in in a kind of productive and meaningful way, you know, that really kind of augments a lot of their efforts and really designing kind of a rich and vibrant game world with within that as well. And so there is this I'd say like interplay between all of that and so having this, you know extra kind of incentive on top of that while being part of an ecosystem, you know, it's something that we can kind of support, you know, from the treasure perspective on top of all


Got it. So just to synthesize here, so you guys have built bridge world, which is your own metaverse, which is almost as meta game where people are incentivized to accrue as much magic as possible. But I think the real magic no pun intended the real magic of the situation is that you're able to convince other people to also be incentivized to accrue magic because I think one of the, you know, huge issues that we saw from talking to a lot of metaverse projects is that they have, you know, their own token, they have don't own metaverse and they always want other people to build games in their metaverse and we see this like the central and and in sandbox as well. But for game studios, the incentive is not to add value to other people's ecosystem, but to build out their own metaphors but use their own tokens, but you guys seem to have you know, somehow crack the code here to a certain extent with things like cartridges where you're seeing, you know, other people build cartridges or build games on top of magic. So can you talk a little bit, a little bit about the concept of cartridges and maybe some examples of games that are building on top of magic today.

Yeah, definitely. I mean maybe just to bridge that point, you know, so what, what we did see, you know, earlier in the year was one of our games actually looking to acquire kind of magic and we had a bit of a divestment with them and they spent 4.5 million just to buy a magic so that they could use that for, for their own kind of game. And so this is something, no, no, it was, it was, we, we, we had that to be used internally, but yeah, it was ratified by, by the dow want to kind of approval and that was something that was kind of interesting. And so I think we're seeing a lot more of that where, you know, magic will play, you know, increasingly kind of this meaningful role. And you know, it really depends, it will take a different kind of shapes and sizes and different flavors as to how magic is used. But it's, it's, you know, certainly interesting. And so I think with, with these cartridges and these games, you know, and, and, you know, I'd say there are different kind of like, you know, levels to this, right? There are games that um, you know, kind of come in, you know, from kind of day one. And, and, you know, we have this initial cohort of, I'd say kind of like seven external games that, you know, we brought on kind of earlier in the year and so, you know, these really are kind of genre agnostic, you know, pretty kind of diverse in terms of what they do, you know, there's uh, and I won't go through all of them, but you know, I'd say three of the kind of highlights beyond the ones that we're building. You know, there's one called Battle Fly and and this is, you know, more of this kind of like their flagship game will be a bit more of this kind of like idle strategy game, you know, but they also launched this kind of three d obstacle racer game really, as a, you know, it's a really engaging, you know, stream a ble kind of, you know, interesting kind of tournament play that, you know, people can kind of compete with. Um, we have another game called Knights of the ether and you know, they're building kind of this roguelike deck builder game, you know, inspired by Slave Aspire, So, and then we have this other one called Tales of Illyria, you know, immersive, kind of three D mmorpg, World bosses, kind of like very fun, very kind of, you know, engaging and so um, and, and so many others that are kind of built on top of that, you know, we have party games, we have, um, you know, I'd say like more of these hyper casual titles, there's one that are well to, that, that I'd highlight that we're really excited about that have not kind of launched yet, but you know, we've been in talks with for a really long time to, you know, really try to bring them into the ecosystem and you know, we're, we're about to kick off or very soon kind of our second cohort. So they should come come live.

But you know, there's another game called The Beacon, you know, they've been at it for, you know, over a year, kind of almost two I think of building this road like kind of dungeon crawler experience. And so being able to attract games like that, you know, has been interesting. And then this other mix of, you know, I'd say this like more so hyper casual, you know, Jack box style kind of game that, you know, can really attract and appeal to the masses. So we have this game that is in the works called Hover Cats, which is super interesting. Um they just partnered with Youtube to run their kind of game on experience where, you know, it was the world's fastest crossword word solver versus the world where, and so everyone could essentially kind of compete together and jump in and try to solve crossword kind of um, you know, together with, with a broader community. So so there's so many different, I'd say like, you know, flavors of games that are being built out and, you know, I'd say overall it's, it's really designed to be, you know, there will be a game for anyone. And it'll kind of appeal to to, you know, whatever you're, you know, kind of taste is,

and these are all games built by, you know, third parties, right? Not by the internal kind of treasure court. And this is really interesting. I'd love to double click on that because, you know, if I issued a token today and I, you know, go to game developers and say, hey, build your game, but you're gonna use my token, they're basically gonna tell me, go f yourself, you know, I'm gonna build my own token. So, you know, what is the thing that's pulling these developers to incorporate magic into all these different game types?

I think it's the community that has banded around treasure. Um So, you know, the Beacon, they've been working on this game for a couple of years, and and Tales of Illyria had been working on their game quite a while and asked their community where they should go, and they, their community said overwhelmingly to go to arbitration to be part of this, you know, blossoming network of decentralized builders and games, and um so if you're building for two or three years and um you're proud of what you do, but you're not sure you're gonna get PMF, like it's kind of like deciding whether or not you want to, it's an easier decision to decide whether or not, you want to go with a video game publisher because, you know, the whole impetus behind these indie studios is they didn't want to be exploited by the centralized entity. But we remove that because we're a tao and you know, the founding team, we tried to extract as little value as possible from this ecosystem so it could resemble um an indie studio. But it has all the advantages of a major publisher in terms of um the unified community that I mentioned earlier. And the other thing um I wanted to say, I forgot is that, you know, it's important for games to have their own tokens and it helped us as an ecosystem because, you know, as a free minute project we created this token and our idea was if we create things of value, then it's going to drive value back to our token and our organizations Treasury will now be worth. Um yeah, were things that we can um divest and that's what we've done and how we're standing up our internal game studio um that we made a multimillion dollar investment into acquiring um developers and talent for um you know, in other games need to do this to where they have to have some something to um to provide momentum for their internal economy. But the way we see it differently than P. Two E. Is that P. Two, we had this to token model inside the same game and even luna to an extent was this to token model, but very self referential. And if the project itself collapsed, you know this the equilibrium that you know, it's not that's not a very good basis, but the second token should be the ecosystem token. So you know, if the game comes in and they have their own thing, it's powering their builders and they're driving value back to it.

If magic is the base pair at the A. M. M. Level, the unit of account across the ecosystem and as the builders succeed in this ecosystem, they have um you know bigger exposure. Um and capture of this token that provides the resiliency of the entire network of games because it survives the failure of single games. Um That's the two token model battle um succeed and that's where we see magic fitting in.

And I know it's still early days, but can you give us an example of maybe how a game is both issuing their own token as a cartridge, but also you know, how they're incorporating the magic token into that process?

Yeah. You've been jumping tails and we're sorry God.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So so something like Tales of Illyria, you know, you you would start off by you know, leveraging magic, you know through the marketplace or to meet your character and this is kind of early days and and so you know, being able to acquire, you know, your your primary enough t you know using magic from there and and they're they're an example where, you know, they also have their own native token as well, actually two of them and and and so there is this, you know, continued sort of interplay where magic plays a role. I have something else that's called Elm and then something else that's called metals. And so you know, they all have a role to play within kind of their their universe and metaverse. And so as you know, we spent a lot of time, you know, working with them, you know, as we've on boarded them, but also throughout the process as well. So um you know, john mentioned are kind of economists, you know, Peta, he spent a lot of his time just working through, you know, the overall kind of economics, the game design, the different loops that will, you know, help to kind of inform a lot those things and so, you know, and and with their more kind of mmorpg experience, you know, you can use magic to then crafting item and you know have this then have some other kind of productive use within their world. Um you know, they have this concept of world bosses where, you know, they can use the magic that we provide them on an ongoing basis through kind of magic emissions. You know, we have this treasure improvement proposal that, you know, allowed for us to emit magic into their world so that they can use it for, you know, different kind of reward mechanisms and so, you know, through this world boss framework that they've put together. You know not only is there you know the use of magic and kind of these N. F. T.

S. Where you know if the players band together they coordinate they defeat a boss, you know they get magic and other kind of rewards you know through the you know the native token for that game on top of other items. You know we've actually also seen you know this kind of crossover where if you own an N. F. T. Not from us but also our other games. So something like a small verse or something like a lifestyle. You know these are our other games that you know are kind of touching into this. And so if you own an N. F. T. You can use that to um you know achieve some sort of boost to you know your your character as well.

And so um it's it's really not kind of this interoperability with kind of treasure alone. It's it's also with all of the other games and so you know for for me my my dream is to to really kind of create this like almost super smash brothers experience where you know there's so many intersection points with all of the games that are you know kind of happening and taking place and you know the fact that they can design their own kind of worlds. And you know uh sets of I. P. But have this kind of intersection point which we kind of see. And a lot of ways with bridge world where this is where everyone comes together to kind of collide and and have this shared experience.

So you have Bridge world which is your own meta game and metaverse. And you have these cartridges which are games with other people leveraging their own tokens but also the magic token. And then you have trove which is you know the marketplace for all these games. So um I guess zooming out a little bit for the magic token in the long term. You know what do you foresee as um you know the biggest use case or the biggest reason why people would would be buying magic tokens

um from a player perspective to be part of this ecosystem where there's a single token that they use across the entire network you know and that's what death is done for all of the um crypto sub markets. But this will be when we bring in um traditional gamers and non crypto natives. You know. Um It's very valuable to have a token that the dow has a lot of control over and can fine tune the mechanisms and it'll function the same way where people prefer the convenience of one unit of account across all of their activities but magic does it and very localized way. And um yeah it'll be just you know that's the vision is to have a chain where even the wall is abstracted away and that people just immediately get to it and they're using this token called magic, which our community, we found that they have an attachment even just to the name and the concept behind it and um, it powers everything they do um in that world. And you know, as web three sophistication grows and you can build, we've seen like the first instance of this of alpha groups that use N. F. T. S basically gate keep, you know, but once there's um, like elements of friendship or um, guilds built into marketplaces and other level of infrastructures, you know, a single token like that would be really valuable at tying all of these sub networks together.

I think you raised a really, really interesting analogy which is this analogy to To Eve because you know, for the longest time I'm trying to think of, okay, how do I come up with a simple analogy to explain what magic is actually trying to do and you know, to me it's not really, I think the gaming studio example makes a lot of sense. But what makes more intuitive sense to me as a crypto native is ethereum itself because if you look at all the defi applications, a lot of them see liquidity for their own tokens against, you know, all of them are building on a lot of them accrue even the Treasury and I guess that's the type of network effect that you're trying to create but in a much more kind of specific and narrow focus would you say that's kind of the correct framework to think about the magic vision?

Yeah, absolutely. That's um, that's, yeah, you nailed it and we, we have a lot of internal discussions about, you know, what kind of tokens become money. Um, and because that was sort of our interest was to create a metaverse money and almost without fail. Um, it's always the native token of a Blockchain and um, there have been instances like roman temple that have tried tried to do it and um, the stable coin is different because it's pegged to something outside of this world. But anything else that just kind of floats like a satellite above um, you know, the real economy, it, it has to have some sort of level of work or um, or stake involved for it to acquire, acquire the hardness of money and for us like we want to be where the community works so hard and put so much effort and um, so many systems are built on top of this thing that they imagine and also they use the token to decide like what's real by, by subsidizing specific projects and views of the metaverse and it's in a very loosey goosey way. It does function like a network in that way where magic is anchoring the community and wedding, decide what's real like block production

that is fascinating. And I think that really leads us into the app change thesis as well and which I think is you know, clearly something you guys are leading into as well because currently obviously treasure and the magic token or an arbitral, um but it seems like you guys have plans to build out your own app chain on cosmos. So I feel like we've already touched on this a few times across, you know, a few few of different questions already, but can you help us understand, you know, why are you guys doing that and you know, what was the main decision? What was the main kind of motivation for that?

Yeah, so we're um we have a really good relationship with our Bertram where they've been, you know, if any games or even other defi defi projects or anything else once they come to our Bertram, you know, we meet with them um very regularly and they've been extremely helpful and the any trust thing was something that we didn't learn more about until we were already pretty integrated into the ecosystem. And so we're looking at that now the idea of building similar to cosmos, you know, you could have an app specific chain where the advantage of cosmos to me is that um self sovereignty, where you can have these chains that are hyper focused on their goal and the dow or even the founding team is curating like what products are available in there to control congestion and governance, you know, can be very focused on achieving a specific goal in the ecosystem doesn't become diluted by competing visions and so we, you know, outside of cosmos um when we look at any trust we want to recreate um that where it's the dow curates and permissions, what's available on this chain um similar to a, you know, a video game, publisher platform and um there's lots of advantages to app specific chains um besides governance and the self sovereignty, it's also just a congestion level where you look at something like polygon, it's very effective right now, but they have every kind of ecosystem and niche in crypto there and um I'm a, you know, I'm a crypto maximalist, I think every ecosystem in crypto is gonna scale 100 X 2000 x in terms of just it's a doctor, so I have no idea how any project building on polygon can feel comfortable um that that side chain um can yeah, eventually support them. And um side chains also have their um implicit security risks that roll up stone, so yeah, being based on arbitral um for our assets that require like strong security assumptions and then using like in any trust for gaming where most of your transactions involved, really low cost items where it wouldn't be the end of the world if you lose a consumable or something like that, that vision makes a lot of sense to us for what web three gaming as a platform is gonna look like.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. And even and john I know you're a different guy before and even looking at projects like Dy DX when they kind of decide to move to their own app changing cosmos because they realize well as a proper exchange, we don't really need interoperability with you know, an N. F. T. Marketplace on the theory and we don't need to, you know, fight for the same block space. It makes sense to have their own kind of ecosystem. I think that also really applicable here. Obviously you guys need to become possible with all these other games but you don't really need to become possible with you know a part exchange on ethereum and be fighting for the same block space. Right? So I think that makes a ton of sense. Um And I guess

I just got the DX thing is also just the economics of ZK proving right now where on Stark net you know, they're basically taking a haircut on your entire revenue and it doesn't function like a chain where you know, you just pay the validators for simply validating and it's not. Um and so arbitrary. Um If Zeke ZK proofs is like the winning solution will just um adapt the consensus layer and we really like that about them. But yeah I think the Dy dx moving to cosmos had away lot to do with. I think everyone agrees with zero knowledge is like the way the future is going particularly for gaming. It makes a lot of sense like strategies for guilds need to be shielded to some extent but the technology is too immature and so that the business models just end up being very like value extractive to organizations choosing to do it right now.

And it's funny you say that because my next question actually ties with this concept of technology being too early and I'm curious to get both of your takes on this as well now because now we have the basics of what you guys are trying to do. I think a lot of Vcs out there listening I'm probably thinking well it sounds like it's really sci fi you know it sounds like it's simply too early for something like treasure before we even have you know these mature metaverse is. So I'm curious about what your rebuttal is to that. You know why is now the most exciting time to be part of treasure

to me? I mean I get goose bumps at how similar this is to defy where you know people just showered money on these 2 2017 I. C. O. S. That were um basically see defi and what ended up happening was um I was really involved in defi in the discords in 2018 and 2019 and there was just these rumblings of and you see it now with Sudo swap, I'd like to throw our name in the conversation ether works and this is the future, like this vision of interoperability, compose ability and just a truly web three native approach to structuring organizations and building new kinds of products. It's happening right now and the adoption phase will be eggs, exactly like defi it's gonna happen in a hockey stick. No one unless you were paying attention would have seen it coming and it's gonna happen from really small teams that were thinking ahead. So, I mean I, yeah, I just think it's underfunded, but it's almost like hilarious because that happened to defy too and like we all saw how that turned out.

Yeah. The, the thing I would add there is, you know, I think definitely we were early, but I think we've, you know, in the last nine months, you know, I think our birthday is 56 days actually know, so nine months since we moved to arbitration. But you know, I think, you know, early september, that's when john and I kind of started the project and so birthday's coming up, you know, and, and so within that time frame, you know, we've been able to, you know, write over 260 million in marketplace volume and this is just, you know, specifically, you know, through magic. You know, we've been able to kind of create and really build the dominant kind of empty ecosystem here in our Bertram and you know, we account for over 95% of really all of the transactions here that are NFC related and so I'd say a lot of a you know the kind of early signs of attraction, you know, I think we we've been really building towards you know, having this kind of stable foundation where you know, we can continue innovating, you know, continue kind of you know, moving that forward, but in the meantime kind of prove out, I'd say, you know, for us, the next big stage is, you know, how can we kind of you know, create two simultaneous games that are using the same token, you know, using kind of magic. Um you know, having this, I'd say like network growth and kind of interoperability that is really kind of proven out, you know through productive kind of flows of magic and all the N. F. T. S. You know, between different parts of the ecosystem and so I think we're we're in the early innings of seeing that play out and so, you know, a lot of our focus in recent times, you know, has definitely been around, you know, you know, not only can we kind of grow the ecosystem and continue kind of, you know, innovating but also just making this experience so much easier to get on and so, you know, I think we're we're early in the sense of kind of adoption and early in the sense of kind of this L two friction that already exists. And so as we think, think about just, you know, kind of onboarding both builders and, but also players, you know, and, and so things like things like, you know, certainly centralized exchange listings and things like that. You know, a lot of these partnerships are, are fledging and, and so, you know, we're, we're excited for what the fall will kind of bring as we move towards that.

And how much volume did you say the marketplace generated

265 million us. Um, and that's kind of 105 magic kind of equivalent.

Um, yeah, like through we launched, I think in november or when, um, it's been so long now, but that was mostly from almost all from just the two collections we had made Bridge World and small brains

got it. Yeah, that, that's amazing. Um, and I really encourage people to, you know, check out the project, you know, not inducing people to buy any tokens, but really just go check out the games, check out what these guys are working on because I really think it's, it's something special and incredibly unique and that's why I'm excited to be involved here. Um, so just to close out john carroll, what are the best channels for people to, you know, really get into what treasure is building and really get involved, you know, as community members or maybe as game builders.

Um, yeah, just coming to the, to the discord and there's lots of ways to be involved as a builder. Um, you know, it's sort of just kind of a large boundary list collective of technologists and storytellers artists, game designers, you know, we have someone of every stripe um working in this organization and our ethos since the beginning was, you know, we gave everything away for free and we really do think that this is like, we can build an alternative model to exploitative forms of game development and even just um, yeah, artistic distribution. So this is something that appeals to, you were extremely passionate about it and the community is like very vibrant and growing, so just come into the discord and I'm sure there's a way we can find to match your skills with what treasure is doing right now.

Yeah, to, to, to read it out, it's um, you know, discord dot G g slash treasure tao, one word. And then on twitter, I'd say this is, you know, also a good spot for you to to get the latest, so twitter dot com slash treasure underscore tao. Um so, but yeah, definitely, I mean, you know, I'd say a lot of our core team actually, you know, they started as community contributors and so it was a good kind of funnel for them to really lean into and kind of take ownership and, and so I think as we think about, you know, building the down and scaling the team, you know, and kind of growing what we're doing, you know, is is really going to be community lead. And so a lot of the initiatives that we've been spending our time on has been, you know, how do we kind of, you know, better equip them, but also empower and reward them for a lot of those things. So kind of on top of that, you know, there are certain kind of incentives that that are in place to to be a part of really the the bigger picture. So we're excited to partner and work with really anyone.

Yeah, absolutely. That was really helpful and we'll be sure to include some of those resources in the show notes below and for people who want to learn more, we're gonna prepare a more in depth research memo on what treasure is, you know, how it works, examples of games and how the token works and so on. So definitely make sure you subscribe to Block V. I. P as well. Well, once again, thank you so much for coming on the show, john carol. This isn't really fun.

Thanks. Yeah, I did just want to say to all your listeners, I used to just read Jason's tweets like in 2019 and I learned so much about defi so this was a huge pleasure, I'm getting to do this.

Yeah, thank you so much for reading my


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