Ep: 475 The Central Bank of DeFi w/ Sam Kazemian of Frax - Transcripts

October 13, 2022

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In this episode of Crypto 101,, we talk to Sam Ka…


all right everybody it is time for another episode of the crypto wanna one podcast but before we dive in to our awesome awesome guest in conversation today I wanna remind you guys of two things in the first one is if you go to crypto one oh one insider dot com you can join our private community here is where we have our model portfolio in all of our topics we also have a trip to wanna one university we have hours and hours and hours of written and video content that explains blockchain explains cryptocurrency in a very bite sized and easy to understand way in we have a weekly newsletter that goes out and quarterly state of crypto addresses that go out there's just a ton of value packed into this every which way so once you guys first I did go to crypto one oh one insider dot com today if you haven't already I also want to remind you guys that peace of mind and I recently just finished a book I took eleven months of our lives to write and we're calling it crypto revolution your guide to the future

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we walk you through this fascinating world of crypto currencies and blockchain in its part history book it's part instructional guide and it's going to really show you guys why crypto currencies are globally disruptive and how they're going to actually change in real life in real terms the way that we buy and sell and even live we include a bunch of how to's on getting started with your first exchanges we give you tips on how to safely buy and sell and store crypto currencies as well as how do we evaluate potentially good crypto currencies the best part of the books that we're giving it away for free all you have to do is pay for shipping and handling so go to


revolution dot com and pick up your copy today all right everybody welcome back one podcast breaks from sunny San Diego having a great time just got off nice lunch with my in laws and it's how you doing over there in Austin Texas your son doing pretty well just got back from Colombia had an amazing time over there very jealous of their whether you do the whole range of every day I did I went to because my verse and I was very very impressed by so many long term builders in the space to have conviction in their beliefs that were going to waver no matter what the request for the world with the west there's a funny pun you know what the west or the rest of the world does they're going to be building an ecosystem for their vision of the future and well aligned with that mode of thinking is our guest today what you go head introduces so I would I was gonna say even before we hit record and even get a chance to to run it by Sam so I might run the risk of looking a fool here but Sam I don't recognize me but we had dinner in Japan in twenty nineteen right after the team's summit and this is when you were still with us CEO in the boys over at every pedia and so I was I was kind of you know going through and studying for acts a little bit I think I know this guy he told me in January of twenty nineteen that he was setting out to build a decentralized central bank the six that's you right I'm not

in the you know I wanted I want to see if you're gonna keep going because like yeah you've got photographic memory at amazing yeah I do remember my members probably not as good as yours but I yes indeed like my history is before I was ever PDS that decentralized we key encyclopedia on the blockchain Theo is still running in fact there's a new version of that coming out on I am and only gone which is gonna be pretty cool but yes indeed you're totally right


been and that's what you're building now I mean literally fast forward what is it three four years and now we have fractured land we have fractures fractures walk in this is your brain child this is your baby and I I want to kind of dive into

you know

the defense with you because I think it's gonna be a really great conversation that we get to happen before we do that I I do want to hear a little bit about just for the user or for that for the listeners that never heard about you before they don't know your background let's just catch him up and I remember you know UCLA and and all sorts of stuff with

yeah so my name is Sam I am the founder of a fax which is a fractional stable coins where the name comes from my background is it from UCLA got into crypto while I was in college around two thousand thirteen fourteen ash seems like a long time ago now I originally remember hearing about it with a couple friends and I kind of got into proof of work mining like that was kind of all there was to do back then right there is like bitcoin forks are likely for express scripts operas work mining remember one of the first weeks of Dogecoin came out it was mining that is as well and after college I started for pedia as you said with the and one of my other colleagues and it's that's been going well


like I said they're releasing a new version out for

Ethereum and and poly gone and in twenty nineteen as as you also aggressively very well remember

I don't know how I do it with a few of

the crypto history

this is episode four fifty or something not every day someone says we're gonna create a decentralized central bank yeah I remember them visually so big and so bold and I was just so impressed because you mean you guys were deep in the ethos team as well and some of the smartest developers in this space and I don't interrupt

yes so with the with fracture thing just part of my own view of the crypto ecosystem because I've been through a lot of the cycle seen a lot of the stuff is I thought that stable coins we're going to be the one of the largest if not the largest you know part of the the crypto ecosystem and one of the things I always say that I think it resonates with people as I think there's three trillion dollar parts of of cryptocurrency and and one of them is bit coin the other one is Ethereum and the last one is stable coins and what I mean by that is I think bitcoin represents kind of the ethos of crypto is on sensible scarce digital assets right the kind of entirely open Pandora's box for for crypto currencies right now just started the match everything right and Ethereum

the the concept

of you know Turing complete general computation around kind of the shared St Leger or sure sticking up computer right and that was my opinion as revolutionary as as bitcoin itself it's a multi trillion dollar


of of crypt on the future and I think the last one is you know noncustodial truly decentralized on sensible stable currency my personal belief and and kind of what my formative views are they like motivate me as I don't think that fix supply assets like bitcoin or like Ethereum right are going to be the best use of a unit of account or currency I think they're going to be incredible technology is there to the last of the good investments right like and clearly saying their multi trillion dollar market cap potential in crypto but I think that there needs to be currency right there needs to be in by currency I mean something that keeps your purchasing power and standard of living stable right and what what we care about in terms of standard of living right working beings we care about our food energy medical care rent right all of these things entertainment all of these things right and and like now there's a lot of collective consciousness and awareness of like that's basically the CPI basket right which is yeah the the dollar should should be tracking right arm but in in terms of you know that kind of ideas I had that wasn't that popular like you're saying that that

yeah nobody was talking about this yeah stable coins at that point everyone was like what stable coins are useless who wants to be in the dollars you end and because the applications were built yeah I mean so stable coins had no kind of place to go it was like you either and tether you're in I mean USTC wasn't even a thing back then yeah and and like

also just like the word defy wasn't really a thing in two thousand eighteen or nineteen bear market after the ICO craze and and things like that right and I think that's what really motivated me to get into the kind of stable coin space and and the essentially the stable currency space as as part of part of crypto right and I still think and and I think people are certified and he agreed with me that the the third trillion dollar market in in crypto is stable points right and and so you can you could cast a wide net around that whether it's you know well is it that that the dollar pack stable coins mainly are now is that is the dollar kind of you know not like former generation of unit of account is there gonna be a new unit of account that's like are going to be this century's kind of like dollar odd there's obviously a lot of debate and ideas about that but just the general concept of stable currency on chain is as important in my opinion as as bitcoin and Ethereum as like just it is just a pound Daschle concepts a trillion dollar idea and so that's why I always think it's like the top three things and so going into it about Franks Franks is what I call a fractional stablecoin and that's where the name comes from tracks and the idea behind it is that it has multiple stability mechanisms before our fractures like young Koreans and then there's also MakerDao dai stablecoin right which was over collateralized on chain you an argument die you have to put like you know two dollars apiece you know if you meant one die writer if you want to mince like thousand diets but like two thousand dollars worth of Ethereum right and that's the price of it there I'm slowly goes down right it gets taken from the smart contract liquidated to buy back dice always keep the price generally stable around a dollar we thought like stable coins on chain should be more like capital efficient meaning like there's different ways to actually generate frocks there's different ways to keep it stable like protocol on liquidity you know it is


the huh

no single point of failure there

exactly yeah it's no single point affair but also like a mixture of different ways to expand the the money supply right and so on the one of the main criticisms with like over collateralized models is basically this this lack of ability to increase the money supply right when


there's actual demand for our currency right if if you think about it there is literally the only way to generate and over Clara stablecoin is either by you know wrapping it with the with the fiat coin right or by creating leverage for each right over Clarence anything Jenner generating and so basically we thought of these different kinds of modules and mechanisms to keep track stable such as product on the Canadian curving Eunice what algorithmic parts of the supply which is like increasing and decreasing the amount of fraction in the open market by backing it with partly affects us and also just doing a lot of protocol lending right which is the same thing as an of lending fraction to all day compound all these different things and recently you know we we launched our own decentralized lending market tracks land which is powered by a lot of our fax stablecoin lending so that's kind of the the now that the background there and things are things are good things are growing really fast and there's a lot of stuff going on so a lot of people sometimes say oh it's so hard to keep up with everything there's like Franklin tracks wanders Frank stable coins there's also the FBI stable coin which is one of the first stable coins that's pegged to the US CPI right that that basket of consumer goods so it's it it's essentially an ecosystem and I actually like to call it more of an in economy rather than an ecosystem because I think if


trying to basically measure the usefulness of the currency right how much it's used and and things like that it's more important to have an economy that has debt denominated at that savings denominated in it and as people holding it rather than kind of you know saying it's an ecosystem are like there's a lot of you know community and things like that because you can actually just concrete we measure an economy right like in terms of either GDPR that denomination volume and and things like that and I like to call the Franks economy right instead of the the facts because I'll be out there is a lot of things going on just like there's a lot of things going on in in in a diverse economy and ecosystem so things are gonna

love it what are some of the ways users can participate in this economy yes so

the the main ways tracks is extremely defy on native and so we don't do anything off chain in terms of like any like the protocol does not hold any assets off chain it doesn't do any like market making off chain and things like that for example you know I terra which everyone probably knows this was like famous for doing a lot of these like market making things on centralized exchanges and and these kinds of things rises into any of that fax is more similar to MakerDao and that everything is on chain it uses smart contracts you can see where the collateral is where the assets of the stablecoin are and so the best place to really do kind of low risk participation like staking you'll farming and and things like that you can do that in our own gauges which are these like farming contracts you can do it on curves and contacts these are really big parts of that Ethereum I defy co system for access a really large presence there and those are just kind of the ways to get started right like if you have Frank stable coins or other dollar stable coins there's a lot of Frank's parents you can stake you can get yield especially in this kind of market and you know obviously none of this is an investment advice or anything but they're fairly low risk in terms of their just stable coin staking and they're in curves right curves is a blue chip our tax and their but again after the everything that's gone on in both the industry and in the greater financial system you know macro economically now this is investment advice it's still


pretty risky

but you can get started

on your farming you can take part in FXS staking we have a system called VFX ask Anna generally if you just go to actually act on facts not finance it's a really really comprehensive front and you know dashboard system shows staking yields shows different places you can our trade tracks L. P. fax Ernie els frat infraction FBI stable coins and everything like that

has this been easier or harder to accomplish than you originally thought it was when you set out

I think it was definitely

about as hard as I thought but not

the same reasons

so yeah I mean I don't think anyone is as or you know we want to create high K. trillion dollar stablecoin eight in the in the crypto market you know

it thought it would and things is easy but for different reasons I think one one important thing is that there is this thing called the stablecoin trilemma and this is Vicky been a pretty hard thing to to tackle effectively and this is actually one of the largest challenges so for people that don't know Vitali queen the term blockchain scaling trilemma a while ago which basically means there's there's this kind of triangle where you always have to seemingly give up one leg of the triangle

to scale up lock chain


all three parts of the triangle are really desirable for blockchains like decentralization

it L. on sensibility right basically like me to billion security right security means like it you can actually be sure the new blocks will get rolled back and and things like that right and so the idea behind love metallic scaling trilemma is like if you're trying to scale a blockchain you can like make the blocks bigger or something but that makes it less these decentralized right because no one can write notes or if you make it more decentralized than the throughput and and the actual scalability goes down right you can only have like two out of these three there's a there's a stable coin scaling trilemma which is basically like it's it's like decentralization on one and collateral on on the other end of the triangle at the top it's like the peg tightness like the resilience of the pagan the idea behind that is

is like if you have a state like the peg meaning the the stablecoin is gonna remain pegged to one dollar or one you're exactly like heck inflation adjusted dollars

exactly like like paper form and so you have this triangle for stable coin which is like tags you know collateral and decentralization right and and the idea behind it is like it almost seems like you have to give up one of these things because if you are if you have all decentralized collateral right like for example L. U. S. T. does liquidity right also like terra kind of did because it was technically another you know crypto token and things like that usually at best you can get it to kind of L. UST which wobbles a couple cents around

a dollar or

terra and worst case it's just implodes and and goes to zero

he half a billion dollars wiped off the face of the earth

yeah exactly and and or you can kind of have it where it doesn't have the centralized collateral right it's like it's like if you're not going right and it's it's not decentralized the collateral is in but the pack performance is top notch right if you just have a bunch of you know U. S. treasuries are fiat in a bank account on the pegs number gonna wobble right again but but like you always have to worry about decentralization and and things like that so I didn't know I don't think the industry kind of really had the idea of like that stablecoin trilemma but that is I think one of the largest our challenges right if you're trying to get a stable coin to hundreds of billions of dollars of of market cap and then eventually trillions right in the next like five to ten years then this trilemma is is pretty important right it's like what what do you do there hasn't been really a solution obviously we're trying to tackle it and and faxes own unique method but there hasn't been an objectively agreed upon way to solve this right it's like it's either fiat coins right which you know you always have to worry about blacklist or what new regulation my common maybe like you know holding fiat coins won't be the same be ending on what Congress or other countries and things like that pass and you might have to worry about you know being blacklisted or not able to hold it or you have to try to


slightly riskier stuff and hopefully not though but like as risky as UST or if you hold like less risky stuff the packs the waffles like L. UST which while was a couple cents around the around the dollar right and so this I think is the main challenge so so to answer your question this is been something that I think is pretty concretely defined in the stable when space but you know people to know about it you know two years ago three years ago

tell us a little bit more about Luna you mentioned a little before and it seemed like everything was going along great until it wasn't there were a couple really careful eyes it tried to give us some warning signs a little bit ahead of time that there were potentially some flaws in the system but the exploit windows like so small it's like a little air shaft on the death star like Inez no big deal it was the lease yeah but it was all turns out exactly but it turns out it was a big deal was Luna for just a flawed system that was doomed to fail house of cards is waiting for a wind or was this a deliberate attack and exploit to drop an entire ecosystem that maybe was a competitor what I'm saying I I don't know about that that

you know can conspiracy theories of like whether it was an attack or them or whatever but I think it's really important

to highlight Frank's actually

the reason we call ourselves a fractional stable Kline and we named it tracks and

stuff like that is our view is that

purely algorithmic stable coins entirely don't work right before we launch tracks there was this thing called basis which they never launch but their idea was

is like

other bond tokens another share tokens and

they they basically were one of the

leading like algorithmic stable coin

like theories of how how like

an August able should work right and

the idea of faxes we have a lot of hard assets Franks's backed

over ninety two percent by literally hard assets over collateralized loans kind of like make or other stable coins and and things like that

it means a hard assets these are they're still volatile assets right because their theory there

you know some of them are either stable coins that protocol control liquidity some of them


yeah Ethereum which is over collateralized loans the same way as maker


they're basically a mixture of different kinds of assets but they're not they're not like you know that they're not


other tokens from the

frankly consistent right

some of it is algorithmic right which is basically that

are part of the supply that's basically

stabilized with the FXS and and things like that but it's very small very very small the whole point of faxes that you can't do this right you can't start a stable coin you can't start a currency that basically has no exaggerates collateral and I think


kind of wrongly assume that you know

because I

Terron polluted or something any kind of design that's not either a fiat coin or like entirely over collateralized will like never work which is clearly not true right faxes never broken snag I even a single time in its existence and

we while we call ourselves a fractional stable Quinn

I think


have thought of it as another algorithmic design but I

want to stress that I think

a lot of people including us


honestly I think

even the the terra guys

towards the end

they knew that like look

you can't back something by

itself right that's why they started the LFG fund right exactly if they tried it because their whole system it was all endogenous collateral right like you know the price of Luna which meant it it you know you S. T. those were so intricately combine in there was nothing else there and then they realized they raise ten billion dollars to go make markets essentially it just didn't work that was it was kind of just out there for for anybody to target right anybody with enough money to to kind of drained that fund if you will by taking them down that's kind of what they did it's pretty sad to see it but has fractured her been targeted I know you guys said you never lost your peg but have you guys ever kinda like fought off an attack no

I mean like that's the thing we just realized we just assume that everything is always adversarial I like for example one of the things that

we we basically always

make sure that our designs and everything can withstand is like


every single unlocked you know like Frank stable coin it's owned by users right like people that actually want to come and and redeem and get a dollar value from the protocol smart contracts can they do that


and and the answer is yes so like right now you can actually

you know

don't take my word for you can go look at the smart contracts on on chain


every single


stablecoin that's owned by users are being staked or something was withdrawn right and then they were either sold into the protocols on

the quiddity right like the the clatter of the protocol has

or regained

could all of them get back a dollar value the answer is yes

and you don't have to trust me right the good thing is we don't say all you know that the collaterals like with that market maker or it's with like

yeah there's no Celsius or Voyager or block five just yet a risk where there's a high pot the cation exactly that you don't have to take our word for it read like but just you know

check signs but then they're fine right you could go and take a look inside people did this

in fact that's why

Franks never broke its back in in may June and you know July during those like crazy weeks and stuff because

people could see it right people could say okay

everything is you know going to **** everywhere her right do we get out of this thing or like is is everything messed up here and a lot of people asked that in our community and things like that and the reason things didn't go bad as one

eight they

they couldn't go ahead have medically but then if if enough people

understood that

right and they can confirm it on chain


there doesn't have to be this like crazy panic right

yeah there can't be a run on the bank are there doesn't need to be run on the bank because you could see the the assets there publicly verified and attested to by all the different notes and so you're not gonna have a a Leeman brothers are bear Stearns crisis or even more so kind of as a central bank you're not gonna have a a a bank of England sort of you know run on the bank or anything because you know people can actually see what's collateralized in the debt yeah it it almost feels like it's like

it almost feels like

in order to you know not have a run you need to be able to prove that the wrong can happen


in fact my own view is like

that the second that

and this is just general banking in in terms of like everything is like I think the second that it's

verifiably clear that there are ten

and and there can be a run like there's like not enough


assets to back like liabilities of like either stable Cornish or something else

there will be one like the probability

as a market like that information goes into the market the probability of a run goes to a hundred right asymptotically reach is like a hundred percent and so I think that's why it's really important

to be able to actually have

these kinds of like on chain proofs and then like


I'm actually pretty big proponent


the regulation that says that stable coins need to you know

publish their reserves because we will automatically it's like you might have an issue like frags complies with every possible

you know regulation of of of publish even though that's not an entity it's like it's decentralized and everything like that someone can just publish it in a structure that's like you know things the smart contracts and and actually just looks and an instructor is that like a balance sheet or something what whatever that

the like exact requirements are but like

every single second R. every block right every ten seconds

Frank is actually

others will write like the balance sheet is entirely audible so I'm actually pretty big proponent of whenever people ask what about stable Quinn regulations are you scared of this or that

I'm obviously

I'm not a proponent of like restricting things are are like banning certain kinds of evil coin's but I'm a very very big proponent


the the the reserve

disclosure requirements right I think that that's that's required I think the fiat coins are too right even though it mainly targets them because like they can't

attest to

auction stuff but I think they they also want greater transparency in so so do we because we automatically


comply with it

the fact love it so cool to know the guy who actually built financed the right way just cruising along on a matter what the world throws at you so with Frank's already being a robust economy is your vision of being a decentralized central bank complete or do you still have more work ahead of you

well I mean


is never there there's never going to be a time where it's complete so the main thing

is that the way that I look at it is

and in defy and then like a digital economy there's usually like


fundamental pillars and everything sounds like a triangle but it's actually because there's there's a lot of things that are coming in threes and so

I call it that the Trinity

I stack which in my opinion it's like stable coins lending and liquidity and tracks right now is the only army or or basically

project that has all three of these

things in house right if you think about different stable coins or different M. Ms or lending Mars they usually have one or maybe two

right like for example

maker has the stablecoin dai right and then they have their recliners lending system for maintenance so that's two they don't have like any kind of MMR swap facility right curve

and if you

if you notice recently they announced their C. R. B. U. S. D. stable quite so they have a swap facility and in MM and now they finally are releasing their second


right that this

C. R. P. UST stable quite

and awesome thing with


Ave started out as a lending to call one of the largest in in defiant recently they announced

go which is there are stable coin that will work

inside of their their lending system so now they have to as well frack says Frank stable coins Frank's land and tracks well

so we have

all three in my personal view is that it's going to be very clear that

these three things are

part of the same stack in that part of the same scope so

the larger these blue chip protocols get

the closer they will be in kind of completing this Trinity

so to speak and

and like lending and and stable coins and and stable coins and an on chain swaps

they're all the

the same thing and they're not as separate


the early kind of crypto

defy space which would like you to think

I'm in fact for example

like you don't see people say

why binance


is is both in the spot swap market right

as well as the like leveraging

and lending market right and and like why does binance also I. B. U. S. D. why don't they only concentrate on on like spots what's or something right everyone in their mental conceptual framework they


binance centralized exchange okay stablecoin spot exchange lending and like leverage and things like that make sense I think that

that kind of stack also

is going to form in in like one coherent

product our economy

on Shane I think whether

you know projects

know it or not if they're like you know consciously moving towards it or not it's kind of a law of nature Indy five it'll kind of congeal into that and that's what we're seeing with with

are they with current with racks with all three already



a little bit ahead of the game but that doesn't mean we're

we're definitely gonna

win we just have to keep shipping and it's it's never done

yeah how many actual is gonna ask us something else that made me think like how many people like on a monthly basis are are working on the fracture Kanemi is it you in a few buddies or is it being kind of developed and in several countries by several different players yes well the Franks like debt developer and and cuore team

is actually pretty small lean but in terms of the community it's actually very very huge so you re we've given like grants that are that are voted through governance we people have been working on the dashboard's projects integrations and all these things


than I can

you know even count

right and and so the community is very vibrant it's across multiple multiple continents

that the

developers that are working on kind of that the trendy stacking

and the core products are are

a pretty lean were actually growing pretty quickly but one of our strengths is that

fax actually is is quite

you know profitable in terms of like revenue was


and and protocol

compared to the cost that it has I think you know

maker for example as something like maybe a hundred

you know

I think they call them core units are like paid contributors or or something like that

racks only has about eight to ten of them

and and like we literally building ships

all of these things

are from basically one tenth

the size

now is our community is is thousands and thousands of people and then there's tens and hundreds of them building integrations and and things like that dashboards and and and

stuff like that but the core open source contributors that

make a lot of this


is much more leaner than than that you know average

you know

blue chip protocol lifelike

maker and other ones that actually love to see some kind of comparison I think we're in terms of

core you know people that are that are paid by like the Dow it's pretty lean

it's as extreme that's why we've actually been able to be very nimble obviously we haven't like

cut people because the

everyone is extremely useful and and that the the amount of shipping we do per person I think is probably the highest in the industry and

you see all these things like good ratio to track

and and like

exactly I'd love to I'd love to see

someone do like an analysis of like the size of the fight blue chip protocols I think we definitely be

up there it's not like

probably number one in terms of efficiency

yeah well crazy I was gonna say you know there there's lots of different ways to skin the cat you're doing it a lot differently what kind of like what would you say like motivated you to start the whole fax Kanemi like was there something personal in your life that that made you want to go after it or was it just you know your your your finance and programming wizard and you just needed to have an outlet

no I mean


I've been in crypto for

like a

pretty long time now and


I think that the more

I thought about it right

more than I realized


bitcoin and and six supply our assets like Ethereum or things like that that are more like investments

they're not going to

you know

they're not gonna solve cryptos

vision of of having decentralized currency they're going to be great investments are gonna be

scarce digital assets but

my personal view and some people call this again a stablecoin maximalist view

is that that

the currency of any economy needs to be

stable to a

standard of living

that's why

you know that the dollar is supposed to and always trying to track the CPI

right that that's why that if

if you if it's not right like like currently in in in the past years and stuff since the pandemic

will are

starting to rightfully be like yo

you know you know

what the heck and and stuff like that so I think my views as they've gotten stronger about currency the more I've realized we can

with racks and

and and the entire economy we're building we can actually solve that

that part of

you know crypt those vision and ethos


it and it's proving to be more and more correct in in my opinion at least is that the more I see the industries are stable coins are becoming a bigger part of

our crypto part of

finance as a whole you know the the talk about stable coins and they're extremely unique invaluable importance in the industry is growing day in and day out I think in the next six to twelve months stable coins are going to continue to be more and more relevant

in fact

my own view is that the next generation of stable coins is going to be something like

the FBI

was which is what we're working on

at tracks as well which is

currencies that are on chain


their noncustodial they're they're decentralized right N. dot they're not take two a and national currency unit of the counselor I picked the dollar the pound or or like your or anything

but they're packed to a

basket of consumer items that keep your standard of living the same because like that's what's important at the end of the day right if you think about

the US dollar

one way to think about it is like the CPI is the tag and then the inflation rate is the deviation

of like that that the pack of the the U. S. dollar right like how much

inflation there is the more the the pagans off right so like one way to think about everyone arguing and worried about inflation on on Twitter and in the news and stuff

is basically

our present the dollar as a stable coin and then pretend like everyone's tweeting like all it's it's depending are like why is that

from the pack like

the devs Jerome do something trump how like



I think that

once people collectively start to think about it like that they can think okay well why don't we actually released like a completely rethought stablecoin that's actually just picked to


the consumer price index or basket of consumer items have that governance on chain same way

the crypto

does governance and entirely doesn't on change and pay get to those things rather than

the dollar which is as a proxy peg to the the CPI basically he trippy stuff Sam I mean there's there's so many different areas that we can take this but I I think we should wrap here for now I got like kind of a last closing question and it's like out of all the other people that you developed with and kind of come across other projects all that kind of stuff lose one guy or girl that's really impressed you

that's a good question I mean there's a lot of really impressive people in crypto and

I think I haven't

haven't developed with them personally but I think something that everyone probably agrees on or the vast majority of people is like metallic is a really really

good guy

and and like in terms of ethos he really does represent

that the good of the space other people I've I have

you know develop with their arts integrations with

the curve devs are all always very

top notch they've been in crypto for a long time convex

those guys are

very long term oriented there are absolute great people the Olympus style guys they're actually

very very

long term oriented and they're doing some great things

I think it's important to realize the stuff I personally

think about and like look for is positive some mentality which is actually not


abundant as people with thinking that I deal with because of some mentality is like you don't want to think about competition

as much or like how to take other people's you know piece of the pie

you want to try to think about how to grow the entire size of the pie

right so so that

generally wealth and value increases rather than you taking other people's value and like yours maybe like net increases but

the real way to

think about how to advance the industry forward but just everything in in the world to is

how to actually create value because you can create

wealth right you can create economic productivity you can create things that are good for everyone including yourself in your project and things like that so


you know the projects that I personally think embody that you know are curved convex Olympic style obviously metallic that original in my opinion

positive some

guy in the space and there's that there's quite a few on of them but personally I always try to live

that he says

especially when when doing stuff that tracks and doing partnerships and things like that

because of some sounds like a great name for a new podcast yeah let's do it yeah I was absolutely sure of it Sam thank you so much for coming on to the the crypto one one podcast where where can people find you online they want to follow you after this will link it in the show notes but I give a quick shout out to the show you have floors I'm I'm on Twitter and

telegram all the time literally even when I'm working or everything I always have a tab of telegram everyone knows how responsive and both in their tracks community and so all of them telegram and Twitter they're just my name at St Casimir


at Frank's finance both Twitter and telegram that's pretty vibrant your community so hope to see their

love it thank you so much toxin