Altcoin Signal NOT SEEN In 12 Months! (THIS Happens Next!) - Transcripts

January 20, 2023

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Today, we are looking into new Altcoin data that reveals the truth about ADA, and I will give you my real thoughts on Cardano as a Layer 1 protocol, compared to the other Blockchains. Don't miss the alpha in this Friday Banter! ⚠️ 𝗕𝗘𝗪𝗔𝗥𝗘 𝗢𝗙 𝗦𝗖𝗔𝗠𝗠𝗘𝗥𝗦 𝗜𝗡 𝗢𝗨𝗥 𝗖𝗢𝗠𝗠𝗘𝗡𝗧𝗦 𝗔𝗡𝗗 𝗖𝗢𝗠𝗠𝗨𝗡𝗜𝗧𝗬 𝗖𝗛𝗔𝗡𝗡𝗘𝗟𝗦 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 𝗦𝗽𝗲𝗰𝗶𝗮𝗹 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝘁𝗼: 🎵 DJ Asher Swissa - Track: https://bit.ly/336wtix - Channel: https://bit.ly/31soP1j 🎵 Marc Rebillet - Track: https://bit.ly/3pXQW21 - Channel: https://bit.ly/332zhx9 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 𝗗𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗹𝗮𝗶𝗺𝗲𝗿: Crypto Banter is a social podcast for entertainment purposes only! All opinions expressed by the hosts, guests and callers should not be construed as financial advice! Views expressed by guests and hosts do not reflect the views of the station. Listeners are encouraged to do their own research. #Bitcoin #Crypto #Altcoins 𝗧𝗶𝗺𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗺𝗽𝘀: 00:00 Show Summary & Intro 03:40 Bitcoin Price & S&P 500 Today 05:20 NordVPN Special Deal 06:20 Guests are Joining the Banter 07:15 Is the Crypto Market Recovering? 11:40 Developer Activity Report - Cardano 14:00 Polkadot, Cosmos & Solana Compared 28:35 BNB Chain - Alternative to Ethereum? 34:10 Cosmos Ecosystem Number Two Blockchain? 35:28 Next 3 Crypto Ecosystems Surging 39:56 Genesis Bankruptcy - Chapter 11 Filing 44:28 Genesis - Market Implementations 49:50 Can the FTX Exchange be Revived? 53:03 GTX - Kyle Davies and Su Zhu 55:25 ChatGPT & AI Blockchain Plays

Transcript

You know, you've got to celebrate that Bitcoin is above 21,000, even after we've had another chapter 11 liquidation. And this time we'll bankruptcy filing. And this time it is Genesis admitting that they owe over three and a half billion dollars to over 50 creditors. So we're going to be talking about what this liquidation means to the crypto markets, because the market didn't move. It's almost like the market priced this in. Then we're going to talk about a whole lot of altcoins. And then we're going to talk about Charles Hoskinson and Cardano, because he's calling me out for reporting incorrect data around Cardano. So we'll look at the data. We'll decide together whether the data is correct or incorrect, and then we'll make a call. So let's do this. Let's do this.

Get the fuck out of bed, bitch. Go.

Wakey, wakey, rise and shine, you bunch of legions. And let me tell you why I called you guys a bunch of legions, because remember when we met you yesterday and I said to you guys, I'm giving you five coins that we haven't actually spoken about before. But do not go and ape into these coins, because if you do, you're going to be the exit liquidity. Well, I want to just show you what happened to those five coins. So I mean, we'll start off with Conic. So Conic, shut up today. I'll take you. You can see the shut up today to about eight dollars sixty nine. That was you guys. I warned you guys don't get in because they had a pump. We had radiant, which pumped yesterday. And then we had let's get let's let's show you a canto.

Also, absolutely, absolutely pumped. I hope it wasn't you guys actually buying the pump. If you bought it and you made forty percent, well, congratulations, congratulations. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to bring you the highest alpha per minute shows on the Internet. That's it. We try our very best to do if you want the highest per minute alpha shows, highest alpha per minute shows on the Internet. That's cool. All right. So, first of all, thank you to all of you guys. Love you guys. Bunch of DJs.

596,000 subscribers on YouTube. We're growing in the bear market, which just shows how loyal you guys actually are. Smash the like button. Yesterday, you guys really helped us get Unshadowed Ben. It was the first day that we went Unshadowed Ben. And you can see it in our views yesterday versus the views of all the other days. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Do it again. Like, like, like, like, like. In fact, I heard a rumor that if there are enough likes by the end of the show, just maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, just maybe, maybe we'll give one away today.

There is a chance. There is a chance that we're going to give away one of the Rolexes today. All right. So, someone says Bitcoin is waking up. Let's quickly look at that. Bitcoin is waking up. 21,187. It's quite cool that we're getting 21,187 on the day of a Chapter 11 filing by Genesis, which now claims that it owes debtors, creditors, $3.5 billion. We're going to spend some time talking about that. We've got the S&P, which was rejected from this trend that we've been following. And that's good and bad, bad that it didn't break through. Good that it went down, but Bitcoin is holding its own.

Then let's look at the bubbles. So, oh, wow. Look at what happened to FTX. So FTX also, DGen, DGen, DGen Play trading back at $2.29. And that's in hopes that they may actually be starting up the exchange again. The liquidator came out yesterday. John Ray came out yesterday and said, we are open to anything, including possibly starting up the exchange again. But is that actually a viable plan? Well, Sam Bankman, Fried, thinks so. I seem to think so. But some other people have told me that that's maybe not really such a viable plan. Let's look at some other altcoins.

I saw Frax. Okay, Avax, the elephant in the room. I'm still short. I'm down five grand. I'll take her on the chin for now. Frax. I saw that Frax is, again, above $10. There was a trade, and I think you've probably missed that trade. The trade was too short, Laido and Long Frax because people thought that Laido was going to lose market share, and it was a big seller of Laido and Long Frax. But I think you've missed that trade. I think you've missed that trade, and I think that it's time to get into new trades. To get into new trades today's Friday.

And what do we do on Friday? Fridays is our our Bank'rers. Remember that our Friday Bank's are brought to you by none other than NordVPN. They are our partners. They are the best VPN for crypto people in the world. And I've said this before a million times to you guys, if you are surfing, if you are in crypto and you don't have a VPN, you're absolutely crazy. For one, you're not surfing anonymously. They can see exactly where your computer is, which country, which territory. And you can keep yourself anonymous by getting yourself a VPN. It will mask your IP address. And if you do use the link below, you will get the deal, um, and pay $3 35 per month. Okay.

Just get the VPN help NordVPN continue to sponsor us so we can open you guys amazing alpha, high alpha per minute shows, uh, here on Friday. Bantis. All right. Let's do this. Let's do this. We've got a big show today. We've got Ishaan back with us. We've got Jose back and we've got Avi Shell back with us. Gentlemen. How are you? Are we feeling a bit more bullish? Ishaan, I'll send it to you.

Are you feeling a bit more bullish? Why aren't I hearing it?

There we go. Yeah. We're starting to turn it a little bit. I don't know. Tides are, you know, tides are turning. Uh, people are, are changing their views. Um, you know, I think especially after this, I think bears are, uh, in disbelief, I, I, I think something's changing.

Yeah, you know, you know what gave me a the idea that something's changing, two things have happened recently, which have given me the idea that something's happening. The first thing that happened is the market started responding to news. So that's like, we're getting and we've got news of, uh,izontal and Amazon. And the market responded. We've got G strapped-in news. The market responded. And then what I looked at, I actually looked at some data. And the data that I specifically looked at was this data over here, which is the realized price for Bitcoin. What you can see is that, for the first time in a while, Bitcoin's trading over its realized price, which means that in aggregate, it means that the aggregate Bitcoin holder is above his cost base, and that makes people much less risk-averse and much more – you know, you know, much more amenable to spend. And that that is when they're going to slightly more risky assets. So it does look like the patient has a heartbeat. It looks like the market's back.

It has some kind of heart. Also, it's been a long time since I've seen tokens running on reports. And there were a couple of reports published this week and tokens started to run. We covered some of those reports, et cetera. So I'm feeling a bit more bullish. Jose, bullish, feeling a bit better? Or how are you feeling? Are you do you trust this little bounce?

Yeah, I'm bullish. I was bullish last time I was there. I don't know if anyone heard it because my internet sucked. But I did say I thought there was a 50 percent chance we'd we'd seen the bottom. Obviously, that's just plucked out of my, you know, my orifice. But but I still stand by that. And I think it's probably higher percentage now just because I don't see who's sort of left to sell and didn't puke all their coins in all the chances they had kind of earlier this year. And I agree with you on the on the psychology. We're seeing like negative events come out like a Genesis bankruptcy in the market that doesn't react or or pumps. Obviously, all the macro concerns and stuff still stand. But I don't think any I don't think anyone on crypto Twitter or really, there's probably very few people in the world have an edge with the macro. And I think the sort of secular reasons to be bullish crypto haven't changed.

If anything, they're well, I definitely think they're stronger than ever given where the world's headed. So, yeah, I think it's hard not to be bullish after like the price drops you've seen in the year we've we've we've had.

So I'm going to say that you mentioned macro. And I think that when I look at macro again, I'm not a macro economist, and it's very hard to be a macro economist and to have any edge in macroeconomics, you know, this. But I'm looking at inflation inflation is under two percent if you annualise it based on the last six months, which you know, if the market is looking at inflation, it's under. And which is what the first target is. You can see that the Gold price is actually responding to it. Well, the Gold price is pumping, and usually when the Gold price pumps it, it's in anticipation of the Fed loosening their typos and you can see the gold starting to react as if inflation has finished. And they are expecting the Fed to start reducing rates. Now, it's probably too early to start celebrating, but I would say that the macro problems, or specifically the the inflation-related macro problems are behind us. And as you say, we've had all the liquidations in crypto. And the people that are left are the bunch of retard degens, which are not selling their coins at any price. You can kind of see that. Like it feels like everyone's been flashed out.

So I don't, I think we will talk a little bit more about the Genesis chapter 11, because I think we do need to spend some time on it. But that's how I feel macro. Avishal, how are you guys feeling from a macro point of view, specifically crypto macro point of view?

We're not really talking about macro, macro. Well, first and most importantly, not financial advice for me ever. And I'm a terrible trader, so nobody should ever listen to me. But you know, we're always long term bullish. I think, you know, to Jose's point, like you can't, I don't think you can be in this space and not look out 10 years and say, you know, is this space going to be, you know, a lot bigger than 10 years in this today? Like, absolutely. And that's why we do things like the developer report, I think just like looking at the fundamentals, you look at 25000 developers a month writing code and you're like, there's no way this

isn't going to be bigger in 10 years than it is today in some form. We're going to talk about the developer report in about 30, while we have to talk about, in the report there, I did a little review of your developer report. The report, I opened the report. I showed the results of the report, I did, I did that and the Cardano Community came flying back at me saying chain communism and this Cardano Community is not surprised. crypto man has no integrity, shills a VC report that lies about dev activity. The top daily GitHub commit for 2022 yet no dev community, not possible. Um, he's threatening me with a lucky that I don't live in the United States because I could get a lawsuit. Uh, Charles Hoskinson jumped in and he says, YouTubers that shield Solana and, uh, aren't given a corona fair representation using biased sources. Excuse me. Well, I catch my breath from the profound surprise and shock.

I love the card. I love the Cardano community. They're so passionate. Even when they're wrong, they're still so passionate about what they believe. I love it.

So why do they believe that they actually have a whole lot of GitHub commits? I mean, I must say I did look for more data because I'm always open to check it. I'm wrong. I did check it here. Um, they say that sentiment published at Cardano had here, there Supposedly, activity throughout the year and they said the sentiment has the, um, as the, uh, the winner. Uh, what's it's a script and see,

yeah, so usually all these other sources, what they're doing is they're only going to that one repository. So they're only going to like the Cardano protocol repository or, or the theory and protocol repository or the Solana protocol repository and looking at that. What we do is we crawl. Uh, I think the last check was like 250 million code commits across tens of I think hundreds of thousands of repositories, just in crypto, and then we crawl all of open source. We're crawling tens of millions of repositories and then we're tying them all together, it's an open source. Anybody can go contribute to it. It's an open source taxonomy and we're saying things like, hey, look, optimism is always part of the Ethereum community. There's something built on it. GMX is built on optimism, I can't remember how arbitrary it is, but I think GMX is arbitrary. Yeah. GMX is on Arbitrum, Arbitrum is built on Ethereum. Those are all part of the same ecosystem because ultimately it rolls down to Ethereum, right?

So we can actually go do all of that. And that's all open source. The Cardano community can go contribute to that taxonomy if they think that there's a large ecosystem, just go commit, go do a pull request, put it in there and we'll start crawling those things. But I'm fairly confident that nobody has as comprehensive a repository crawl as we do. And generally what people are doing is only looking at that one repository, which is, you know, if you have a lot of people working on your protocol, it is gonna show it that way. But if you don't have an ecosystem, then our repository will call that out because we're crawling so much more than anybody else. I feel very confident saying we have better data about this than hands down than anybody else.

Not even close, but you get the idea, not even close. Let's start off with the reports. I think this is a good place to start. We can then move on to FTX and Genesis and everything else we wanna talk about. But I think a good place to start is the report and the layer ones. And I mean, I wasn't surprised by the Ethereum, you know, leading the pack with the most developers. I guess that's pretty much expected. One thing that really, really, really surprised me was Polkadot. Yeah. So you look at Polkadot and Polkadot seems to be, you know, around in the top five. So let's call it in the top five. But I'm not really seeing much, many Polkadot projects coming out there.

I'm not seeing VCs bullish on Polkadot. I'm not seeing, where's the discrepancy there? Because instinctively say, look, the more devs, the more projects, the more projects, the more VCs, where is the discrepancy?

Why is Polkadot so high? Yeah, it's a great question. And, you know, it's actually, it's interesting going back to the Cardano thing, if you, you know, if you look at kind of where we actually have investments, we actually have very few investments in those top five or the top 10 even, because we tend to focus on the long tail stuff. So I think anybody who's trying to attribute like bias to, hey, we're trying to push the stuff that we own is clearly mistaken. On the Polkadot thing, it's a really good question. We ask ourselves this every year, like where are these people? The best theory we have right now is that they are, they skew Asia-centric. And so there's a lot of people in China and that ecosystem that are into Polkadot. And that would make sense from what I understand, like Parity spent a lot of time on the ground in those markets, building out ecosystems. And that universe actually is like a very different universe than the ones that intersect with Europe and United States. And so the VCs you normally hear about in English media are generally not as plugged into the Polkadot ecosystem. But we've triple checked these numbers.

It's always surprising to us how many developers are around the Polkadot ecosystem.

Cause we don't, we organically don't see many of them either. So I have two questions for you in that regard. Based on these developer numbers, are you, you mentioned you don't invest very much in Polkadot. Based on these development numbers, are you, if you guys are out writing a developer report, it clearly means that you think that this is one of the most important metrics out there to determine whether or not a protocol is gonna succeed or not. It's the brainpower which brings the money and the money brings the dApps and the dApps bring the users and the users bring the TVL and the transactions and whatever else. So when you see a number like that, does it tempt you to go back

and look at the Polkadot ecosystem? Yeah, short answer. I mean, across all of these, I mean, the other, I think two years ago, so maybe last year actually, the number that most surprised us was Cosmos. And we looked at that because usually the narrative is something comes out of the gate and it goes vertical. And there are these graphs on the actual developer report, like if you go to my Twitter or Maria's Twitter, Maria's a partner at Electric. Yeah, I've met Maria. Yeah, like these, these are that exact one that you were actually on. These zero index graphs I think are really great. So what you do is you take the first code commit that you see in a repository affiliated with that protocol and you put that on day zero. And you can kind of graph that out for, for how many days and how many developers over time. And what you see is actually like Cosmos was not growing very quickly for the first four or five years of its existence. And then it sort of, it sort of tipped and it started to take off, which is, which is pretty atypical.

And yeah, if you scroll, let's see. Yeah, Maria.

Yeah, like keep going up actually, I think it's before this. Yeah, so if you look at those, there's like multicolored ones. Yeah, is it? Yes, what this is showing is, you know, like each of these lines represents one of those ecosystems and you see that big purple one is the theorem and that zero all the way on the left is the first time we saw a code commit and any repository affiliated with that ecosystem. And so you can essentially zero index all of these things. And you can say, for example, you know, how is plakutat growing compared to Ethereum early days or how is BnB, has BSC growing compared to the early days of theorem? Cause they, they started years apart, right? So how do you, how do you compare these? And what's really interesting is you see Cosmos right below Ethereum there with 2,000, 1,500, 2,000-ish developers total. And you see, it didn't really take off until year five, which is pretty crazy compared to how quickly projects and ecosystems take off these days. And so that was actually the one that surprised us the most that caused us to sort of go back and do a little bit of a double take and say, hey, what's going on here? But you can kind of see the cluster that you would actually kind of expect, right?

It's like Solana, Cosmos, Polygon, Polkadot. It used to be BSC and they've fallen off a little bit, but it actually sort of matches your intuition about where you organically see developers.

Like the numbers roughly seem to line up with that actually. So you mentioned that you're not investing at all in the top, or you're investing very little in the top 10 in this report. What's the investment thesis there?

Because shouldn't you be following? Yeah, well, because we're VCs. So we're investing, what I mean is directly in these, right? So we're not going out and buying a bunch of Polkadot L1s. It's because we're investing in long tail projects, but we're mostly seed and series A investors. So we're finding developers on day zero. They're like, hey, I have an idea and I want to go build something. So our mandate is a little bit different, which is also why I think it's a little bit silly that somebody thinks that we're gonna be extremely biased, we're trying to build it. Like this, for us as the leading indicator, this tells us, hey, go think about the Cosmos ecosystem. Like it's real, go think about the Solana ecosystem, go think about the Polkadot ecosystem. But our mandate is much more to people in an idea and they're trying to think of something to do

not, hey, let's go buy a bunch of Polkadots. But walk me through, Jose, Eshan, when you look at the developer report and you look at the chains that are leading, does anything stick out for you guys in terms of the developers? And does this shock you in any way? Yeah.

Go for it. Yeah. Polkadot was definitely shocking. Same as for you, although it's shocking every year. It's always in the top three, I think, in the developer report, and pretty much every six months I go and try and use Polkadot, and there's always some kind of very little stuff to actually play with and use. And I haven't done that in six months now, so maybe now I'll go check and there'll be some stuff, and if there is, I'm happy to try it. But I guess just haven't seen the sort of productivity, right? There seems to be a lot of devs building stuff, but in terms of applications that you can actually use, it doesn't seem to be as much on that ecosystem. And then the rest, I think, is pretty much as I'd expect. I think a lot of people would be surprised with the Solana numbers based on kind of what I saw on Twitter over the last month, right, just people claiming Solana is dead, or is a VC chain, or Sam was Solana. I think anyone that's been to Breakpoint, that's been to some of the hacker houses kind of knows that isn't the case and has an instinctive feel that Solana has one of the most active and differentiated dev ecosystems, also like culturally, I think they're very differentiated from kind of even Ethereum, Polkadot, and Cosmos, but not necessarily in a better way, just different, right? It's kind of a different developer base, I think, there, but everything else is roughly as you'd expect.

I'd expect, over time, Cosmos to kind of rise to the top there, just because it's a tool set, right, to build your own chain rather than a chain. So you actually have to, like, when you're building on Solana, you have to accept the VM, the, you know, everything else there, so naturally, you're going to restrict the number of people that want to do that, whereas Cosmos gives you quite a lot of customizability and more and more over time. So I'd expect Cosmos to lead there, but again, because there isn't, that doesn't all accrue to any one token, so it's almost sort of not an apples to apples comparison, I'd say.

Yeah, that's a good point. One note too, on the Breakpoint thing, just on the validity of the data, if you go look at the the developer graphs for Solana all up, there is actually a spike right around Breakpoint, right? And when we saw that we're like, wait, is that a bug? And so we went and scrubbed the data. And so and then you see, and then you see, you know, I don't remember it's in this one, yeah, this is like weirdly zero index. And so you see it. You see it come back down actually afterwards, and it's basically because of Breakpoint. And so there's actually like signals in the data that the data is actually capturing the right thing, because it actually kept- like I think the same thing happened on the Cosmos side. it caught the Cosmos conference that happened because there was sort of a hackathon around that and like devs spiked. And then after the hackathon, they came back down. So there's actually signals in the data that we're actually catching those kinds of signals,

which is a good validation, I think. Yeah, I think. Just quickly before I come to you, Avishal, Aptos and I saw, I think I saw Sui in one of the reports as well. Was there anything in the data around Aptos and Sui? I know they got a very low number of developers. I think it was like 75 or 100 or it was under 100. Was there anything surprising in terms of how quickly Aptos and Sui grew or is that just,

hey, it's the first 75, it's usually quite quick?

Yeah, no, they're extremely fast. Aptos, Sui, and there's another one actually in there. I have to go back and look. But yeah, you know, it looks like the move change actually. And if you look at move, we have some data around move, the programming language has also picked up very, very, very quickly in terms of number of stars on GitHub. But Aptos and Sui both out of the gate are doing a great job of attracting developers. And we see that too, that community is tight, they run great events, but they're actively recruiting. They're actually trying to find people to build stuff and they're trying to say, hey, we should have two teams building wallets and let's try to find people to do that. They're putting a lot of, their ground game is really good. I think they're lucky, right? Because they have the benefit of having seen all of these other teams do it for the last five plus years. And so they're taking a lot of that playbook and running with it, and they're doing a good job with it in terms of building an early community.

And 50 to 100 people full-time is not that many people in the grand scheme of things. One of the other really interesting things in the report was you know, once you get up to 200 to 400 people full-time, that there seems to be some sort of like a network effect there, where there's enough tooling, there's enough people that you can talk to, there's enough people in the Discord, there's enough people at the conference that there seems to be a little bit of sort of a network effect. It reminds me of back in the day, Facebook figured out something like, if you had more than 50 friends on Facebook, you became a monthly active user. Because when you went back to Facebook, there's enough stuff to do, or like somebody would always message you. And so it kind of feels to me like that. Like maybe at about 400 devs, you sort of tip over and there's enough going on that you have some degree of network effects. Because those ecosystems haven't fallen off. Like if you look at kind of their stability, they've actually more or less stayed flat even in the bear market.

Whereas a lot of other ecosystems have come down.

Ashfan, when you look at this data, what do you think? Yeah, I think the Cosmos thing is not surprising. You know, I think all of us have spent a lot of time in the Cosmos ecosystem. I think the dev activity there is real and it's sticky. Right. So you guys kind of jump from project to project but they still kind of stay within the ecosystem. I think there's kind of a philosophical, kind of like bound there, that when people kind of get into the Cosmos ecosystem, they kind of really identify with kind of the kind of development process and kind of the way that they're building over there. So I'm not surprised to see Cosmos. I would kind of give a prediction, and my predictions may be that next year, if we were to look at this, and you guys were to run this with Vechyl, that we would see a polygon probably past Solana. And my thesis behind this is kind of that, I meet with a lot of devs coming out of India, and the amount, the sheer number out there is incredible, and every single person out there is highly connected to the polygon ecosystem. And I think it'd be really interesting, and I'm sure this is probably really difficult to get, but if you were to look at the demographic growth, of where a lot of these devs are coming from, I'd be willing to bet the number coming out of India is gonna be rising pretty significantly. And then when you pair that with like, okay, everyone over there is very easily connected to the polygon ecosystem, and with ZKEVM coming out, and Zero, and Midan, and all these other kind of scaling solutions, ZKR, ZKEVMs, that you're going to start to see that polygon commit number start to skyrocket.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that, like number two, number three, maybe it's gonna kind of go under the Ethereum kind of column,

but just kind of like, what would I kind of predict? Yeah, two things to say on that, I think two important call outs. So one, you know, one of the biases that is in this report that is worth calling out, is we can only look at open source developers. It's the stuff that's available publicly. And so that does under count, or underweight ecosystems that have lots of closed source stuff happening. And I do think polygon has probably a lot more closed source stuff that we don't have access to. So if you're building a game,

you don't open source it on day zero, for example. We also have which other communities here do you think have hidden data? When I say hidden data, I mean a lot of closed source data has a lot of data,

when the ratio is the same. Yeah, it's a good question. I think Solana also has a culture of being a little bit more closed source. And actually like the Solana Foundation is trying to push people to be much more open source and release this data. But I think actually Solana has a culture historically being a little bit more close-source. And so in the top five, I think it's Polygon and Solana are likely, actually, under-counted, just given the nature of the kind of things that are being built and who's building there. And so, I think it's a really important call. And I actually think between Reddit and Facebook and Starbucks, there are so many people around the polygon ecosystem that are building, effectively, around Polygon that we're actually under-counting. The second important call is, we actually have looked at the geographic stuff. And really, it's quite interesting. It'll be a separate thing that we released later this year, but when we looked at it at it last year, what was really interesting was that your intuition is exactly right. India, Russia, China, like those ecosystems were the ones that were growing very quickly actually in developers.

And this was self-escribed on GitHub and Twitter. Like, you know, you can say where you are on Twitter, you can say where you are on GitHub. And then we also looked at timestamps. So we said like between the hours of 9am in the US in Eastern time and 9pm Eastern, we can say you're basically you know, in the US basically, and you're working for writing code. And so obviously, there's gonna be biases there because of things like VPNs. But that data actually showed like going back to 2016, the percentage of developers that are in the US or in Europe has been going down, it went from like 70% down to 50%. While the ecosystem has grown, you know, like 20x, right? So the ecosystem is 20x bigger, but the market share of the Western countries has dropped off. And the big winners were

basically Russia and India. Quick, just before we carry on, BNB, BNB chain, there was huge development on it at one point. And I guess that that was the point where it was a cheap alternative to Ethereum that everybody was using when it was one of the only fast reliable chains. Do you think that that drop is a little bit more permanent now where there's a whole lot of other options and people are saying, look, hold on a second, you know, the BNB chain was fine while we needed it. You know, we could easily export apps that we were building for Ethereum to a new low gas Ethereum, which was then BNB chain. Do you think that that

trend is now finished? It's an excellent question. I don't know. I mean, I think there's two worldviews on it. One is almost like, you know, BSC ecosystem was almost like a test net for Ethereum, right? It was just it's a place you could deploy as low gas fees, you could play around with this stuff and learn a bunch. And that was a great wedge. Like they were actually starting to build a real ecosystem. And the fact that the Binance is involved and they have so many users that they can direct at this might be a real competitive advantage for that ecosystem, and it still could be. And so you know, maybe maybe there's something there and maybe as the market comes back, those those users come back and that brings more developers. And so you know, I don't I don't think they're they're done. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's dead.

The other is exactly what you're saying, which is actually the purpose that it fulfilled was this testing ground. And now that the Ethereum ecosystem has dropped gas fees, you have L2s that are really working, and there's so many things there that those network effects really start to kick in. And so why would you go build on a totally different ecosystem when you can build in the exact same ecosystem you're gonna deploy in? And so you might have actually a situation where the purpose it was fulfilling

no longer is needed. I'm curious, I'm curious, I'm not sure what you think about kind of the, so I've heard a lot of people kind of give the comparison of L1s to kind of telecommunications networks, and kind of, L1s are kind of like regional and people are just going to use them to kind of get on-chain or get access to telecom. And then once you get there, it's kind of all about the DAP level and where the actual kind of like, FADAPT is, like, that's where the value of control happens. I'm curious, do you think there's gonna be a world where it's just like very regionally dominated where i be South East Asia gonna build Polkadot and these guys are gonna be on BSC, China's going to be on BSC. And like, you know, how do you kind of think that plays out?

Yeah, it's a great question. And I think it's really possible. And the reason it's possible, is actually goes back to this whole sort of Binance idea is like, where you're onboarding could have a really like from a mobile app perspective, or a web app perspective, or a wallet perspective, could have a really important impact on which ecosystems you first on board into, right. And so if, you know, in the West, if everybody's plugged into Ethereum, and that's the dominant ecosystem, and you know, their Binance has a bunch of penetration in Southeast Asia, if Finance decides to really push the BSE ecosystem, you certainly could get a situation where, where a region of the world because of how they're onboarding really gets onboarded into a particular ecosystem first. You see that actually, you know, you see that with telcos. You also see that with social networks, right? So like Southeast Asia has, you know, cacao talk, you know, Japan had its own networks for a long time. China has its own ecosystems in terms of messaging clients that are totally different than the West. So, you know, at scale, certainly the world I think is Big enough that that it doesn't have to be winner-take-all Which is also I think some of this sort of tribal stuff is kind of silly Which is like yeah guys we're talking about like, you know in aggregate We're talking about 25,000 monthly developers, which is real compared to the major tech companies Let's say but any given ecosystem with a couple hundred people in it Like it's so nonzero Samit this point like we should all be trying to get as many developers in just period It's like why are you spending time? Why are you wasting time at a fang? Why are you wasting time at these like mega companies come come join this ecosystem with a couple hundred people in it and do like foundational technical work. There's so many interesting opportunities.

It's total and the stuff spills over right like the work the polygon guys are doing on zk stuff spills over and makes the theorem better and makes you know cosmos better. And it's like it's so non zero sum right now at this point in

industry. How how significant is the 25,000 number? And people are staying on my eyes are wondering, I'm looking for I'm looking for more data here. But how significant is the is the 25,000? Like, is this a serious industry? Where do we stand?

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, if you look at the major tech companies, you're starting to get into numbers on a monthly active basis that rival the big tech companies, and nobody nobody says, hey, you know, Facebook, you know, Instagram only has, you know, 2000 developers, that's not real, it's going away. It's going to zero. Like, nobody says that, right? Like, you would never say that Instagram is a real thing that 2000 people code for every month, that that lots of people use. So I think we're starting to get into numbers where I think if you're if you're rational, if you're not just sort of irrationally hate crypto or hate this ecosystem for some reason. I think it's hard to say this thing is going away. There's clearly something happening here. In the grand scheme of things though, I mean, 25,000 is a drop in the bucket actually, right? Like compared to how many, I think there's 10 or 12 million JavaScript developers. So in the grand scheme of things, we're still very early, which I think is amazing. Like can you play this forward several years, seven to 10 years and say, there might be a million developers in Ethereum one day.

And that would still only be one 10th of what's in JavaScript, right? Like it's actually a relatively small number, but imagine the amount of impact that a million developers could have one day, like the number of applications that would be being built.

I don't think that's a crazy number actually. I want to expedite this segment because there's a lot more to talk about, but what I'm hearing here is as follows. It sounds like everyone here agrees that Ethereum is the number one and Ethereum will remain the number one smart contract platform for the next couple of years. Any objections to that statement? All right, then it all starts, then I listen again and it looks like the number two here in terms of where people are gonna be is Cosmos. So it sounds like everyone kind of here agrees that the Cosmos ecosystem is probably the next best bet.

Or am I reading it wrong? Well, I think best is a tough term, right? It's more that like, I think there's gonna, they're likely, if this looks like a other network effect ecosystems, telcos, social networking, payment networks, likely there's some sort of power law. And the big winners are really, really big. And right now, Ethereum is just so far ahead of everybody else with such strong network effects that it's unlikely that somebody's gonna catch that anytime soon. It's happened before, like people forget Facebook, when it was first getting off the ground in 2005, MySpace already had 80 million users, right? And so Facebook went from zero to a billion way faster than MySpace went from 80 to a billion. And so these things, over 10 year time horizon can change. But right now, Ethereum is far and away number one. And then the other ones are, I think we'll see, I think it's still pretty early, could you could you have predicted three years ago that Solano would be where it is today. Or even Cosmos would be where it is today right?

Cosmos was flat for five years before it just kicked in. So I want to just summarize this. And then I think the best way to summarize this is to cut out the hot air and just get to the nuts and bolts. And then for me, the nuts and bolts are very simple. Let's eliminate Ethereum. Let's eliminate Cosmos. And then what I want from you guys is, based on the report based on dev activity, what are the next three ecosystems that you're looking at?

Let's start with Jose on that one. Yeah, one thing to mention quickly is just that I think with EVM chains, like when I look at the numbers, I slightly discount like EVM chains and you kind of see it that EVM compatible chains have more multi-chain developers, right? And in a sense that they don't have to be as loyal, right? Because they can redeploy. And you see that all the time there's been arbitrary optimism and polygon. Whereas the developer on Solana or on Cosmos has made like a concerted effort to learn or even on the near ecosystem, concerted efforts to learn a new language, new tooling. And so they're going to be stickier overall. And the second thing, which I think would be an interesting kind of addendum to the report, although I think the data is hard to pull, is just like normalizing this by VC dollars invested in the ecosystem, you know? Where I think Cosmos would really shine in that respect, right? I think it's clearly had a lot less VC interest thus far than other ecosystems. And so the dev numbers are in a sense like quite organic. But yeah, to answer your question, I think probably Solana, polygon, and one thing to me, yeah, hard to pick a third there.

Solana.

The others take a while, I think of a third. Solana, Avishal, let's eliminate Ethereum. Let's eliminate Cosmos. What are the three chains that you would be bullish on here?

Not financial advice, as you always say. Yeah, not financial advice, just from a builder perspective. Yeah, I mean, I just looked down the list. That's why we do this exercise. Solana, polygon, near are the next three that you sort of skip to. Settings at Kusama are sort of a part

of the Polkadot ecosystem, adjacent. I'm not seeing phantom here. Yeah, that's correct.

Is it because my report is wrong? Yeah, no, it's just there's, yeah, phantom's down there. It's below Uniswap. So, you know, it's kind of down

in that maker Uniswap synthetics. No, it's just there's, yeah, phantom's down there. Oh, there it is. Okay, 28, 28. Yeah, okay, there we go, there we go. Ishan, let's eliminate Ethereum. Let's eliminate, so I'm gonna do, to you, I'm gonna say eliminate Ethereum, eliminate Cosmos, and eliminate Polygon, because we've heard your opinion on Polygon. Give me three more that you would look

to be deploying Capitalon. Yeah, I really believe in the idea of like, you know, making developer ecosystems easier, and giving depth tooling, and so near, and the ability to kind of write code in JavaScript is like pretty interesting, and like kind of, like I do think they have a really good like kind of sharding like scalability roadmap. So I do, I'm pretty bullish on near. Like, you know, I've talked over here about like AptoSuy. I do really believe in like kind of the thesis behind Move, and kind of how much easier it makes developer kind of like contract creation. And I guess if I would put a third, like I guess if I could get a third, I would say my third would be like, I'm not surprised to see Avalanche pretty low down. And I I'm not bullish on Avalanche, so I guess I'll give two truth and a lie. I'm not really bullish on Avalanche ecosystem. I think a lot of the guys they're gonna move over. Um, I, I'm not too much of a fan of this kind of like, I don't know, supernet thesis. Um, I don't know how kind of viable it is. Um, so, uh, yeah, I would say like, yes to near and, uh, and Aptosui.

And I would say no to kind of avalanche. Yeah. I mean, I must say, I think for me, avalanche is an interesting concept. Um, and especially with the whole subnet structure and you know, uh, it's, it's very interesting, but I just, in a world where Ethereum executes on its roadmap, I just don't see, and you got all these layer twos and you got optimism and, and, and, and, and a stock and all those other ones back, what, what is, what is the need for the I just don't see the need for, uh, for, for an avalanche, but I'm pretty open to be convinced because I'm not against it and to be honest, I do hold some evidence other than the short position that I've got that. I'm burning on burning, using five grand on a short position, which the community here is the community has been mucking me for a week about this short position where I'm losing my five K. Um, lastly, before we move on, Cardano, can we just get the elephant out of the room here?

I encourage the Cardano community to contribute to the to the repository. If they disagree with the data, they should they should go in and and commit some code.

All right. I think that's a good way to end this. And that was Abishal saying that not me. So if you want to clip it, clip Abishal, not me. Charles, I'm sure you're more than welcome. You know that any time you like you can join the show. Um, let's talk about the news of the day, which was Genesis going into chapter 11. Finally, we've been thinking that this is going to come from from around November, it seems like the market didn't even care that it happened. The market didn't move. But they did reveal a whole lot of things in this in this liquidation. The one thing is that they seem to have a plan in place that in this plan, they're going to form some kind of trust. And, and they have a plan.

And as far as I read, they were talking about trying to be out of bankruptcy by 19th of May. So it's almost like they want to protect themselves using the chapter 11 protections. But they want to be out of of those chapter 11 by the 19th of May. The Vinkelwurst brothers Cameron Vinkelwurst came out today said look, there's an earn update this evening, globe a Genesis global capital filed for bankruptcy under chapter 11. This is a crucial step towards us being able to recover your assets. While we have been working around the clock to negotiate an acceptable solution, various little bit in DCG, the parent company of Genesis, continue to refuse to offer creditors a fair deal. The good news is that by seeking the protection of the bankruptcy court, Genesis will be subject to judicial judicial oversight, and be required to provide discovery into the machinations that brought us to this point. Crucially, the decision to put Genesis into bankruptcy does not insulate Barry DCG and other wrongdoers from accountability. We have been preparing to take a direct legal action against Barry DCG, and others who share responsibility for the fraud that caused harm to 340,000 plus earn users duped by Genesis and its accomplices. Unless Barry and DCG come to their senses and make a fair offer to creditors, we will be filing a lawsuit against Barry and DCG immediately. Meanwhile, we will use every tool available to us in the bankruptcy court to maximize recovery for earn users and other parties within the jurisdiction. So in a long story short, it looks like it's getting a little bit ugly.

They published a list of their creditors. It's huge. There's three and a half billion dollars owed to creditors, which I didn't I didn't realize that the hole was this big. And all the familiar names are here, you can go through the list, I guess, in your own time. But when you look at the assets that they were under managed management, they talking about between 100 and $500 million in assets. That means that there's potentially another $3 billion shortfall in the crypto market. What do we think about this Genesis situation? Ishan, let's go to you first.

Yeah, I think Yeah, I think I think this is an entirely large study of like a lack of due diligence across the industry. Like, I feel like just no one was doing any due diligence a number was just going up so much that everyone is in kind of a great spot. Like, you know, if you're loaning out all of this money in your Gemini, you're kind of using DCG for your earn program. And you're not really doing the due diligence to kind of understand what your counterparty risk is. Like, that's just like a lack of due diligence. Right. Like, I saw I saw like Donut app, which is one of these kind of like CFI platforms that came up. They were in the same spot of like, they're just out here claiming like, oh, we're just gonna give 6% in like a savings account. And what are they doing? They're just handing that money over to Gemini Earn and taking their cut and like, oh, look, they're kind of doing like totally uncollateralized loans. You know, they have no they're not doing any due diligence about who these guys are loaning to, not understanding how protected these loans are. So I think it's just a big kind of lesson.

And like, hey, like, I think this whole year has been a lesson on due diligence. Like, VCs need to do a lot more due diligence. The guys who take on these loans or are loaning out this capital taking customer funds and loaning it to third parties like this need to be doing more due diligence. Like, people need to stop trusting other people. Like, that's kinda why we're building like trustless economies like, let's use these trustless tools instead of just like, okay, like they're a big name.

They got it like they're good. So DCG, we know, is starting to sell assets. So we know that coindesk seems to be on the market. Charles Hoskinson seems to want to maybe put in a bid for it. They're talking about numbers of around $200 million. That's one of what I think is a pretty impressive portfolio that DCG own. Um, you know, I think we, everyone can go to the DCG portfolio on their website and you can see all the impressive companies that they own or have owned, uh, et cetera. Um, it looks like they're starting to sell things off. Do you guys believe it? We're going to get some kind of, of, you know, unbundling of the group. Do you think that there's any risk to the GBTC grayscale trust? Um, love to hear thoughts, Jose.

Yeah. And I honestly don't have too much of a, of a alpha on this. Um, I would just say that the Genesis thing was, was shocking. Right. And I think a lot of the stuff that's come out about risk and Genesis were the people that we thought, I think we're the, we're the smartest in the room. Right. And the ones with the best, um, risk management and seeing some of the stuff that came out about, you know, um, asking three hours for like AUM statements or like, uh, telegram messages that confirm AUM, you know, like AUM is a pointless metric to ask for as a, as a lender anyway, right? It doesn't, doesn't reveal the, the liability side of the balance sheet. And like a $3 billion hole, I just don't understand. Um, cause cause didn't Barry have like his, his, his steady lads equivalent where it was like, we lost a $600 million, but we recovered it from balance sheet and everything's fine.

So like, where I just don't understand where the promoted from the holding company to make Genesis solvent again, they gave them a promissory note and said, you know, you've got a bad. We'll take the bad data and we'll give you a promissory note. Our promissory note, because the last raise that we did was that a valuation of 10 billion our policy. Yeah. It's actually good. What they didn't budget for, I guess. Was the fact that the whole market might come down and that the GBTC, they're, they're, they're holding the biggest holders of GBTC. I think they hold 666,000 shares or more actually, much more than that. And so I don't think that they budgeted for such a big deleveraging. I think the one thing that for me irks me a lot here is that Barry Silbert has been absolutely quiet here. And I'm sure he's under legal advice. And I'm sure council has told him, don't do an SBF, don't get destroyed.

But I think it is disappointing from someone who's been so prominent in the industry that they've kept such silent along the process. I much prefer the CZ approach of being much more transparent. You know what I mean? That's just what I said. But I guess because he's in the US, he's probably under lots of good legal counsel

not to be talking, right?

I'm sure, it's probably better to not be tweeting. I'm sorry, any thoughts about this and what the potential implications of the market may be? Do you think that something could happen to the GBTC trust? They're the biggest holders of Bitcoin on the market at the moment.

You know, I'm not super in the weeds on that stuff. And I think it is, generally speaking, when things go to court, it doesn't resolve itself very quickly. So I don't expect like a quick resolution here. So any sort of short-term market movements even on missed on price, I think are probably premature. I think building on one thing Ishaan was saying, you know, one thing I'm hopeful about here is that all of the failures here are basically the failures of 2008. Like people looked around and said, you look like a good guy. Why don't I give you a billion dollars? Or, hey, yeah, don't worry about the diligence thing. Numbers are going up. So like, just pay me back in six months. And there's a reason Bitcoin was invented, right? Because it turns out in that sort of a system and that sort of an environment, people are gonna do really dumb things and somebody's gonna steal a billion dollars.

And, you know, a system like that is just gonna get exploited. It's the whole premise, like the whole reason we're all here, the whole reason Satoshi wrote the White Paper and wrote some code and shipped it, was the idea was why don't we create a system where people who behave that way can't screw everybody else? Because most people are good actors. Most people just start trying to do the right thing. But the good people get caught up in this and then they get screwed. Because some Joker decided to steal, you know, users funds or lie and just say that they had money that they don't and lie on some form. And what are you gonna do? The guy lied and ran away with, you know, a lot of money. What are you going to do about it? So silver lining here is everybody that's in this space, you look at it just from a demographic perspective, by and large, people are under 40. If you're in crypto, you're generally skew, you know, millennial or Gen Z, it's not not a lot of like over 60. And that demographic, you just look at it by age, like we were not old enough to live through 2008 meaningfully, like people weren't even in jobs yet.

And you were basically in like elementary school and middle school when 2001 happened. So these are sort of like historical events that are now becoming lived events for this generation, where like, if you lost money on FTX, if you lost money through an earn program or whatever, you now understand the thing that Satoshi was trying to tell everybody, which was like, these people will screw you, like they will take your money and run away with it, and there's nothing you can do about it. And so what I'm hopeful about is actually all of this stuff when it plays out, people are going to set up and say, Oh, yeah, there's a reason this stuff exists. And we now actually have the technology to solve this problem, like you can actually have non custodial solutions to most of the things that are happening here. And so

it's sort of the same human failing again, just 15 years later, I mean, I've seen that there's not even a thousand likes, if there's not a thousand likes, I'm not giving away the right exit, I can I can tell you, you know, we're the only town in the world that is giving away two Rolexes. There's a Sub-Mariner black and there is a Sub-Mariner gold and blue and between now and the end of Feb. There is. Yeah.

There is. How do I get on? How do I get on the list? Do I have to like? Do I have to retweet?

What do I have to do?

Where are you based?

Us. Well, then first you need to download a VPN. Once you got your VPN, you should sign up for bad bit kit and then every trade that you make, even though you're not a trader, every trade that you make gets you one entry into the competition. It's so simple and I know and then what happens is I draw a winner and the winner has five hours to claim the watch and if it ain't fine watching five hours then we've drawn a winner the next day and the next day and we carry on with it with these rules. Just to make it just to make a whole lot more fun. Um, I want to talk about FTX and the bankruptcy of FTX yesterday, the liquidator, the FTX shot up because the DJs heard the liquidator saying that he may even fire up the exchange. Do you think that's even remotely viable, remotely possible that the FDX exchange fires up again and that people actually start depositing money onto an other FDX exchange and give their KYC to a court-appointed liquidator in the United States?

Does anyone think that that could be potentially a viable option? I think the only way you see it is if they do a Bitfinex style like, hey, we're going to print a bunch of more FTT tokens to make people whole and then force people to stay on the platform long enough to at least trade some of it back to FTX. I think that's the only way. If they make people whole and they're like, oh, okay, well, if you lock your funds on platform for six months, then we'll give you 100% of what you don't have in FTT. I think that's an interesting strategy, but besides that, if I was anybody, I would just take what I can get and get it out of there. But if they were like, oh, yeah, here's a bunch of FTT on top and here's a two-month

lock and you get 60% in FTT and you are made whole in that sense, yeah, I'd consider it.

Does there any hope that FTT reboots itself? FTT? I don't know about FTT, but yeah. When this initially happened, I had my own FTT, so I'm a bankholder and the bias is probably coming through in this, but I did think there was a chance of restarting, especially if sort of new deposits were kept in segregated accounts with proof of reserves and then the old people like me would just keep trading with their play money chips and over time be able to cash out as more exchange revenues come in. But I don't see that this team that has been liquidated on how they repeatedly try to cash out money is going to be able to run the FCX exchange. I don't imagine the code is very well documented. I don't imagine it's very easy to pick all that up, given that they had private keys stored on the cloud and back doors and all sorts. So I just don't see how they're going to be doing that and running this exchange. I don't see John Jay running that being his forte, running a DGN gambling exchange. So I have very little hope for that, but I still think FTX, and I'm someone that's used all the exchanges in crypto, but also like traditional brokers and stuff. For me, FTX was the best product I've used in that category and people still really give a lot of hate for saying that, but like I think it was the cleanest product to use. I've been using others now and it's kind of been all the pain points have come up.

So I do think there's a gap in the market for someone to build that like cross margin, like just sub-account architecture exchange that works really well. And I think there's a few people going for it.

I just don't think John Jay is going to be the man for that. Do you think that GTX has a chance of capturing that spot? Well, is it GTX or FTX or I don't know what the name is, but I'm referring to Suzu and Kyle's exchange, which is acting primarily initially as a claims exchange and then branching out into crypto and then going out into stocks and then going out into Forex and everything like that.

What did you make of that? Yeah, I don't have enough like info about it to really say. I think GTX is a placeholder name or maybe it was the real name and then it got so much hate that became a placeholder. I don't know. But I think the idea of using your claims as collateral to trade perps is like, it's really cool. I think it's a really good idea. I think a lot of people are going to use that, especially because if you got wrecked for 90% of your portfolio on FTX, which I know a lot of people who unfortunately did, then your claims trading at $0.10 on the dollar are pretty much the size of your current portfolio. So you're like doubling your available capital to trade with and it's just so deejan and like such an interesting way to kickstart an exchange. I really think that's a clever kind of growth hack. I don't know how you're going to make the claims fungible because there's going to be at least a few different classes of claims like KYC people, non-KYC people, I guess like FTX US. So that'll be interesting. And I imagine they've partnered up with debt firms that have like an unlimited bid at certain levels and so can guarantee like the liquidations and stuff.

But I do think it's, yeah, I think it's super interesting as a strategy and I think they're partnering with CoinFlex on it, right, which yeah, so they have the technology already. And actually CoinFlex is, it is a cross margin, like sub-account architecture. It just has like no volume on it and the UX definitely isn't FTX, but it is that, that's the architecture of it. So it's definitely an interesting one.

I'm just, what do you think?

Is there any chance that these guys raised $25 million on a well of $2.50? I mean, crazy things have happened. I mean, anybody that's been around in crypto for a while, you're like, Justin Sun is still around and he like owns Huobi now. Like Circle used to be an OTC desk and now like they had a rebirth and like props to Jeremy for turning that into like a stable coin business. You know, like Jed did Mount Gox and then did Ripple and then started Stellar. Like this is a pretty wild space and, and you know, rebirth happens in all sorts of interesting ways. So I don't know, crazier stuff has happened. So I wouldn't put it past them to make it happen.

All right, listen, lastly, before I let you guys go, let's talk about AI and chatbot and chatbot, which is now, everybody's talking about chatbot, every conversation, every restaurant you go to, every, every bus that you ride on, everybody's talking about chat, GPT. And then we saw a pump in the crypto AI space. We saw Singularity Net app. We saw Viya Tap. We saw all the AI blockchain plays. Are you guys looking at AI in blockchain? If you are, what are the types of plays that you guys are looking at right now that we can look at?

I wish I'll start with you. Not really. I think it's too early. I think it's super interesting. And this stuff gets really, I mean, when you play this out 10 years, it's going to get really, really f'ing crazy. Imagine a world where there's an AI that can control billions of dollars that lives in the cloud and it can, it can, it's like, really mundane questions, like doesn't AI have to pay taxes? And if it pays taxes, who does it, like, where does it pay taxes and how does it pay taxes? Cause it's during a bunch of trading and there's like really scary ones like, hey, if an AI can pay humans in the real world to do stuff and it starts like paying people to do disruptive things in society, what the hell happens then? And so this is going to get super weird in 10 years. Like the intersection of crypto and AI I think is going to be pretty wild. But I think it's a little early for it. It's kind of like, you know, 2012, 2013, like Mastercoin, you know, or like colored coins, you can look at it and you're like, Oh, I get it.

This is not just about Bitcoin. This is actually a platform to do all this other stuff. So you can kind of see where it's going to go in some sense, but where it's probably

going to take 10 years to play out.

Jose, what do you think? Yeah, I think it's very early. There's a lot of hype. I think it's really cool, obviously, like massive, massive unlock. I think it'll have be pretty impactful on society. We'll definitely spend some time thinking about it. I do think it's going to like drastically increase the number of people that have access to like being designers, being writers, being coders eventually, eventually as well. And also probably eliminate like jobs in the bottom, like X percent of those professions, right? That can be covered by AI. But as always, it allows the top percent to be able to do more with their time and creates new jobs as well for that bottom percent. I do think Hasib had an interesting tweet about this, right, about sort of crypto being the new API for money. And in a way like AI being the killer use case, like AI is actually being what crypto is made for.

And in 10 years, like more AIs will use crypto than humans. I think that's an interesting point. I haven't seen, I think there's so many issues with this stuff like data, copyright and intellectual property like the data that's going into these models who owns it. Obviously, we've had data marketplaces for a while, like there's not much meaningful stuff being traded on them.

I just think there's a lot that needs to happen before crypto. In summary, in the interest of time, what you're saying is too early. I must tell you, I saw something blew my mind on chat GPT or chatbot or whatever you call it. I saw a guy that went up to it and said, design me five games that are not available on iOS. And the chatbot designed the five games. Then he said, write me the code for the five games. And then chatbot wrote the code for the five games. And then he said, I don't know how he said it exactly but package it into an app for me. That I can upload onto the iOS store. And I don't know if he actually did it, but it just showed how easy it was to create five games that didn't actually exist. And that blew my mind. Ishan, quickly, before we go, we've got a minute talking about your views on AI and

if you're looking at any of the tokens. Yeah, yeah. I think the Hasid thing, again, just like Jose said, was really interesting in decoupling the money API. I think that that's going to allow for some really interesting things in the future of AI just kind of using money itself. But me personally, I don't know, I own a writing business in the space and I've kind of used it and it's not anywhere close to where it needs to be. It can write thoughtful content. So like me and my business, I'm not worried about it, at least for like three, five, seven years out. But things can change quickly, right? Like 12 months ago, we thought Sam was the smartest guy in the world and Luna was going to kind of be the world's biggest stablecoin in Southeast Asia. So things can change quickly, but I'm not too worried about it. But I do think AGI is kind of inevitable, right? It's going to happen.

We're going to have human intelligence as artificial intelligence. And what that does, and I think we're kind of smart enough as humans to kind of realize this and kind of use it to our advantage. So I'm not really worried long term.

Listen, that's a great way to end off. Guys. Thank you so much. Much love from the Banter fam. Nice to see you all again. See you guys again soon. To the Banter fam. The Bonter fam, let us just check what the number of likes looks likes. Josh, what do the likes look like like? Let's see. Let's see. Let's see.

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