HIBT Lab! Tala: Shivani Siroya - Transcripts

November 17, 2022

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‘This is not our customer...’  That was the common justification banks used to deny loans to the entrepreneurs Shivani Siroya supported through her work with the United Nations. While it’s not unusual for a tech startup to raise millions before ever launching a product, small business owners across the globe are all-too-often deemed unworthy of even just a few hundred dollars by traditional financial institutions.   In 2011, Shivani set out to change this at scale. Her company, Tala, has since disbursed more than $3 billion in microloans across India, Kenya, Mexico, and the Philippines. Borrowers simply answer a few questions on a mobile app and — within minutes — they have access to capital. What’s more is that the vast majority of the Tala’s loans are repaid, even with such a frictionless vetting process.  This week on How I Built This Lab, Shivani talks with Guy about the lightbulb moments that drove the creation of this vital credit solution and its potential to uplift entire national economies.  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.


what is actually going on with the economy nowadays the price of gas inflation are we in a recession I'm Jeff close co host of NPR's planet money come along with our super team of econ experts as we delve into the stories that show you how the world works that's when it money from NPR how I built this is pleased to have slack as our presenting sponsor slack where the future works let's slack beer digital H. Q. it's one digital space that brings together all of your people and all of the tools you need having slack makes collaboration easier and more flexible so you can be a lot more productive don't wait to see what you can accomplish with your own digital H. Q. head over to slack dot com slash D. H. Q. to get started slack where the future works our pets have minds of their own and despite our best efforts to protect them sometimes the unexpected happens unfortunately a lot of well meaning pet parents aren't financially prepared for an emergency trip to the vet one in five American pet owners have taken on fifteen hundred dollars or more in personal debt to cover surprise pet care costs but it doesn't have to be that way nationwide offers pet health coverage for dogs cats birds and exotic pets get reimbursed for eligible expenses related to injuries illnesses and more go to pet insurance dot com to get a quote today hello and welcome to how I built this lab I'm guy rise so for many of us the three digit number can decide a lot for our future if we can buy a home how much our interest rates are and if we can start a new business those three digits make up our credit score and there are billions of people around the world who do not have one in fact many people around the world have no trace of a financial identity whatsoever and this means no long history no bank accounts and no credit score Shabani Saroyan met some of these people and she was working for the U. N.'s population fund back in the mid two thousands Shabani was based in Africa where she met entrepreneurs who didn't have access to cash to expand their businesses people who made jewelry or soul food and market stalls and they weren't looking for gigantic loans but rather a hundred Bucks or even fifty so in two thousand eleven Giovanni founded a financial technology company to help the service these micro entrepreneurs it's called tala and operates in Kenya India the Philippines and Mexico today how has loaned out over three billion dollars to partisans taxi drivers Baker's furniture makers you name it and all the small dollar amounts the vast majority of towers customers have no paper trail notes thank you counsel no credit history so tala evaluates their credit worthiness in a very different way by asking them about their lives Shadi started her career working in finance out of college but she eventually got bored with life on Wall Street and in two thousand six she decided to go work for the United Nations

so I was working at the one population find and I was working across West Africa and sub Saharan Africa and what I was doing was conducting micro finance research so I was trying to understand how individuals in these nine different countries in the region were using their money and I wanted to understand whether they were starting


improve their quality of life as a result of getting access to microcredit

and where some of the countries that you were you were traveling to

so I was in Malawi yeah I was in Ghana cote d'ivoire R. South Africa I was in Kenya and then I also had the opportunity to do the same research in India as well

and one of the things you start to come across small entrepreneurs people who might have a bakery or you know might repair shoes who didn't have access to capital essentially

exactly it's that these micro entrepreneurs they had tremendous potential they were running great businesses but they couldn't get access to formal loans to be able to expand their businesses or otherwise to even be able to you know create assets or kind of future opportunity for their families

and give me a sense of what kind of entrepreneurs they were I mean blacksmiths you know we're workers craftspeople things like that

yes so I mean in countries like Ghana I did a lot of food stalls so women that were preparing to solve on the side of the road I saw a lot of people are doing fabric works so bowled aligned in Mali in India it was you know as I said lots of titles jewelery we saw a lot of fancy stores which was just a collection of everything so like a convenience store in some ways

yeah I think when a lot of people hear the word entrepreneur in the United States or in Europe they have a very specific view of what that means actually if you think about entrepreneurs globally the tip entrepreneurs which you're talking about it's somebody in panic as seven selling it at a food stall inside the road

exactly and I think that's our perception but at the end of the day if they're pursuing a venture right there taking the risk

yeah I know that after the when you went back in to kind of back in the finance and eventually found tala which he founded in two thousand eleven tell me about the genesis of that idea what TV idea to want to create a sense of microfinance microcredit startup

so for me it really stemmed from the time that I worked in emerging markets at the one population fund you had the opportunity to really first hand see money moving through the system so what I was studying was the effectiveness of microcredit so small dollar loans for the underserved and really trying to understand you know by providing these loans are we actually seeing an improvement in quality of life


I saw first hand that there's no macro database that I can go to and so for me I had to essentially kind of create quickbooks I became that quickbooks


started you know going to their homes in the morning I would go to work with them I would sit in the back of their stores and I would first hand see how much money they made that day how many products that they sell how many services do they provide I would then go to the market place with them and understand what they did with that money you know what decisions did they decide to make with it


by walking alongside them I saw one that they were making really concrete decisions they knew how to make decisions I also saw that they were very capable of running their businesses but I also saw that they felt stuck they didn't have a lot of confidence in their ability to grow those businesses or to really plan for the future of their families and so


started to lend to them myself because I saw that potential and I knew that I had savings and I trusted them and so in that sense I kind of started the solution of Tallinn a very manual way you can say before realizing hello this is a much more systemic issue but by doing this across nine country please I was presented with the fact that this is a global problem and for me it really stems from well I just need to prove the potential and what's missing really was identity and the ability to prove that potential in a in a form of data the same way that you and I have credit scores that is what I saw was missing in these markets

so all right let me understand the problem right because in the United States or in in most western countries if you run a business you wanted a loan out there are banks and you apply and they were a credit check and you either get along or you don't and it could be several thousand dollars two hundred thousand dollars to million spins away do in these countries you are visiting is there even a structure like that Brazil there is presumably this banking systems where you could formally applied for a loan

there aren't there are banking systems the only think about how those systems have been built they've been built in such a way that it's really focused on I would say the formal customer the customer that has a a credit history they have paperwork they can bring in they have national ladies and the point is that when you look at these individuals that are underestimated they're really thin file and in some cases no file


and so there are no no paper receipts there's no database that shows how they have spent their money for how much they're earning

so you were working on these projects in these countries in Africa and to meet somebody came across who every start to connect the dots and he thought this person could use a small amount of money like a hundred thousand dollars

yes so the example that always comes to mind for me is a woman that I lent to directly her name was seen on her and she lived in Chennai in India and the thing about semen that was so fascinating was that you know she was like many other women in her community or even on the same block in that community they were running tile business

she was firing tiles in the kiln

in account exactly and she was then hand painting them


and what was kind of entrepreneurial about semen though was that not only did she run her childlessness but he had a side jewelery business


she would sell bangles and accessories and been dis and the reason for that was she was also someone in the community that helped organize weddings and so I felt like she was pretty young girls got the side hustle in addition to her business I also saw the fact that first hand she was saving money for her son to take a vocational training course and so she was also saving money consistently I saw that she paid her bills consistently and then I also saw that she really understood where to buy inventory what price she was buying it at and what time of the month she was actually buying inventory and so I saw all of these behavioral characteristics of someone that would be likely to repay and I also saw that she had the capacity to repay the small dollar loan

some curious she is somebody who you came across her and she was and she said I could really use more cash to buy more inventory to buy more products I mean essentially her cash flow from hotel business in the in the jewelry business wasn't enough to buy the materials if only she could get five hundred dollars or whatever to buy more material she can grow her business

exactly so for her she was turned away by traditional lenders in Chennai she was turned away for those small dollar loans and it was one because she didn't have the necessary paperwork but the other aspect of it was that a lot of times the loan officers would actually just turned to me and say it's funny sema is not credit worthy we can't lend to someone like this this is not our customer and I kept hearing that phrase this is not our customer

yeah so from what I understand you essentially decided to be the bank you decided to just lend her a few hundred Bucks and what did you do did you sort of work out a repayment system

I did so I decided to become the lender I went to Seema started lending to hundreds of other people as well in the community and essentially came up with what I thought the risk calculation would be based on that first hand or in person and data that I was seeing

her in but what you were doing this with your own money

I was doing this with my own money

well so I mean if it's a hundred Bucks here fifty Bucks they're probably over time you are lending out maybe ten thousand dollars or more

it's true while I worked at the one I was traveling market to market


I was in a new country every

four to five months and I was lending to people when I was there and so at that point I think I was probably about five ten thousand dollars and and I started to have some aha moments to realize these things and kind of opened my eyes to


I was actually due to do the underwriting we're gonna take a short break but when we come back more from should body about how her company tala is working to support underbanked populations around the world stay with us I'm guy rise you're listening to how I built this lab managing a large team means making every hour in the workday count at how I built this we know that efficiency and productivity can make or break a business imagine how much more you could accomplish together with an extra day of work each week that's how much time you'll save with click up click up is a collaborative work hub that brings together everything organizations managers and teams need to do better work faster all in one place click up is the one tool to house all of your tasks projects doc schools spreadsheets and more click up is built for teams from one to over one thousand help your team of ten plus be more efficient and productive with click up use code built to get fifteen percent off click up massive unlimited plan for a year meaning you can start reclaiming your time for under five dollars a month sign up today at click UP dot com and use code built take your productivity to the next level with click up today linkedin believes B. two B. marketing can be B. two brilliant be too bold and B. to break through how with a platform purpose built to make B. to be mean more for your business a platform with tools to help you build better relationships with your key customers to boost your buyer journey while building your brand with the targeting tools on link then you can reach your precise audience right down to their job title company name location and more to make sure your ads are always being seen by those who matter with so many people following linkedin for professional news I hear all the time from business leaders about how helpful linkedin marketing solutions is for driving web traffic and building brand awareness we hear it every single day rethink your B. two B. marketing linkedin ads and get a one hundred dollar credit on your next campaign go to linkedin dot com slash build this to claim your credit that's linked in dot com slash build this terms and conditions apply welcome back to how I built this lab I'm guy rise tracking which viceroy the founder of tala a financial technology firm that helps provide microfinance loans so you're starting this really cool program and it's so cool and what does it mean if you were to land fifty or a hundred or two hundred dollars to micro entrepreneurs what were they doing with that money

they were expanding their businesses and something that I still think a lot about is yes access to capital is definitely something that is not equitable across the globe at this point we know the majority of individuals lack access to formal financial services as we know them so credit products savings products but for me the thing that I was seeing first hand was a change in confidence and a change in their own agency and so the fact that someone was willing to believe in them and that I wasn't just turning them away that is what I saw actually change their businesses the most

so what was the increase of the let's say I don't know what a hundred two hundred people you lend to while you were working for the UN population fund what was the default rate

I had to I would say less than five percent of all right

wow and how would you figure out your interest rate what did you charge them

it really dependent on you know what I saw as the tenor of the business I was really trying to assess how fast did I think that they could actually expand that business but I would say anywhere between five percent up to about fifteen percent

well and how did you manage this I mean this is like we're talking about two thousand eight two thousand nine when you're doing this you were just manually keeping up with it and you go in person visit these lenders and you know once in awhile they came here to collect my payment is that Sir how you did it

it is I I was obviously in their stores so I was interviewing them about their businesses their cash flows and so in every country I was interviewing I would say about five hundred people in so I was actually seeing them very regularly but the point is actually die I started to actually get help from the community organizations

from the local NGOs who caught wind of what you're doing

exactly and that was also how I started to meet customers in these countries so the project I was working on required me to get that input data and so I needed to work with these community organizations to start to interview the customers on their cash flows and so through that experience I kept meeting more and more customers and being able to assess or compare I would say micro entrepreneurs to each other

see you serve lunch this project and you start to see some real impact and by the way you never intended this from the beginning to be a charity I mean because some people might have said Shiv ani one just like it does raise money and to get people grants like why was it important to make it into a loan that would be repaid

so when I was doing this while I still worked at the U. N. for me it was well we are exchanging value I am giving you value to grow your business and so as a result of that were partners

in this area

in terms of kind of the future of the solution I also knew that I had to create something scalable because again I'm one person my savings was limited and so at some point it would run out and I needed to find a way that others would actually do what I was doing

so eventually with this idea come a plant in your head you decide to start a business around this now before we get to the business that you started with just Holla we should mention there's a ferry famous microfinance organization Grameen started by Muhammad Yunus I think in Bangladesh and he won the Nobel Prize for that and they're huge they're all around the world and they do this work tell me about what you wanted to do was it going to be pretty much the same thing that they do or was going to be different

he was going to be different because what I saw working in traditional microfinance was access to small dollar loans that were helping individuals start to move from that day to day to moving to this place of opportunity but what I saw was that traditional microfinance was essentially assessing their risk or kind of solving for that risk calculation by putting individuals in a small group so using social pressure to actually guarantee the loan so you're in a group of let's say six other women if you default the five other women are then liable for your loan


and so it created a very sticky experience and high repayment rates but what I saw is one of the gaps was that when one of those individuals let's say had more potential to grow her business than the others she was still not able to go into a traditional institution because she didn't have that identity that she could just stand on on her own and so that lack of data was what I saw as the missing bridge between traditional microfinance and the formal banking system

all right so you decide to create this business around small dollar lending and the idea was to help them develop a credit score initially

that was exactly it yeah is to develop a credit score and what I would say is actually it wasn't to really solve this problem of how do we provide access to small dollar loans it was really trying to solve the system problem in the sense that what I really wanted was that these individuals could actually just one day walk into a bank that they had a credit score like the rest of us

and they do that by borrowing money from you guys and putting it back on time and that essentially would start to help them develop a paper trail

exactly so the idea was could we start to develop a credit history by using let's say the loan repayment data but for me it was actually what's the underlying data so that same data that I saw first hand in ten nine or in all of these countries that daily life data that I was using to do the underwriting and then lend to them what I was really after was how do we gather data and I didn't know what kind of data that I had this hypothesis that it was this daily life data could actually be turned into credit scores and then we could make lending decisions and the kind of turn for me was realizing I could only get this data if I was actually willing to give value up front

I know you're in for countries in Kenya the Philippines India and Mexico has a work I mean what happens let's say you have a bakery in Kenya and you have no access to capital what do you do

you would go to the Google play store you would download our apps and you would give us access to key pieces of information things that allow us to really understand what your capacity is so we're wanting to understand things like consistency of bill payments out we want to understand your deposits essentially how do you make money

to answer about the questions on the upright

exactly as you go through about eight to ten questions within the app and we're really trying to understand how fast you go through it what is your behavior how do you engage with those questions and also questions like what are you using your loan for and then that allows us to then credit score you and then from there we provide you with access to capital

so I know it right now it's just on android and that presumably because of the vast majority of people in the developing world use android phones

yeah exactly there's two billion individuals in emerging markets that have android devices but it's also in terms of just the price point you know now you can get a smartphone for under twenty five dollars in these countries

yeah so what I'm curious about is you sort of answer these questions but there's no documentation or not uploading a screenshot of anything because they're literally just answering his questions and you're just hoping that they're truthful or assuming they are

well I would say two things one we are uploading the front and back of the nationally D.


so that's the first thing the second thing is we're asking them to take a selfie because we do want to verify identity so we do want to make sure that you know the person answering the questions is the same person whose phone it is so we are essentially tying together their identity the other thing is when it comes to verifying the self reported data that is one of the things that we understood about these markets is when you pay your phone bill you are getting a tax message box that confirms the receipt of your payment when you get a remittance you get a text message that confirms that you received that remittance and so what we do is what the customer's permission we actually parse for that transaction data and so that allows us to really tied together that understanding of is it realistic that what they say they're using their loan for is what they're using it for is the income that they're stating the same as what we can understand the proxies of data that we have to understand that and so again there are different elements to this but at this point we are majority using our own proprietary data and our understanding of their behavior more than transaction data even

all right so they go on and they get approved I returned like eighty five percent and get approved within minutes for a loan

it's true and it's also actually that eighty five percent of them get money in their accounts in under two minutes and so imagine you go from the Google play store you answer eight to ten questions and then right into your mobile wallet you have money in under two minutes and while I don't have access like that

so they have bank accounts at traditional banks or this is a wallet inside the app

this is a wallet inside the app or it could be you know collected in cash at a bill payment center or remittance center you know obviously the travel time is what we take them more but in terms of our delivery it's under two minutes

so you could basically get this deposit into your wallet in the app and then how do you spend that money from the app is it just like electronic cash for like to like apple pay has work

it is so in markets like the Philippines our customers can pay bills they can send money to other family members they can cash out so they can go to a seven eleven and actually withdraw physical cash as well

what's the average amount that people are borrowing

so at this point on a monthly basis I would say it's between a hundred and fifty to two hundred dollars

and how long do they have to repay them generally

you can go anywhere between one day all the way up to a hundred and twenty days

her how does the interest payment get the I mean I guess the interest is determined by the sort of the risk of the lender how do you decide what they're going to pay an interest

we do our own credit scoring but essentially it's tied to you is this a first time customer as a repeat customer right now we've developed something called custom duty allowing our customers to have the power of choice in their hands and so depending on how long they want to keep out the capital or how much they want to take out it's really again allowing them the flexibility to choose and so by creating something that is so customized it's almost creating something as credit that you're paying for in the moment so it's pay as you go credit as opposed to these kind of fixed terms that you know we're all used to

given that many of your customers don't have bank accounts and they're operating on a cash basis so they might get the loan from you then they might go to seven eleven and pick up the cash how are the repaying the money are they doing it the same way are they going to seven eleven and handing up handing cash over

they are so they are going into a bill payment center or remittance center in a convenience store like you mentioned some of them are doing bank transfers but the majority of them are doing it in person in cash

well and wanted to digitally where does the money come from I mean if they don't have a bank account are there other options they have to repay through the app

so they may not have a bank account but many emerging markets now do you have mobile wallets

right now so

the market like Kenya has M. pesa the Philippines has G. cash and we are integrated with each of those wallets and so what we did was in the early days we said we need to be where customers are and so we actually became I would say at this point probably the most interoperable lending company that there is where we can working cash traditional bank accounts mobile wallets and then we have our own quality infrastructure as well

we're gonna take a quick break but when we come back more from Shiv ani zero yet the founder of Thailand on expanding the future of microfinance stay with us I'm guy rise you're listening to how I built a slap officially one hour until your favorite show premieres time to get some snacks delivered through Instacart okay let's get some popcorn seltzer chocolate covered almonds and wheat did they released the whole season better cart some ice cream for the two part finale when your day should be ending but a new season is starting the world is your cart visit Instacart dot com or download the app and get free delivery on your first order offer valid for a limited time minimum order ten dollars additional terms apply thank you your job stinks just wait until you hear what it was like to be a funeral clown long before all of human knowledge was in your pocket people had some pretty bizarre professions luckily you don't have to see S. sin eater or a barber surgeon now but you'll find out what it's like to get surgery with a shave wonder is new podcast this job is history is hosted by Chris Parnell from Saturday Night Live and Rick and Morty steeped in factual history this brilliantly funny podcast delves into quirky and absurd jobs from the past with hilarious interviews that are infused with fascinatingly true Easter eggs come get weird with us each week as improv comedians from Groundlings and UCB act out their old fashioned gig from another time you'll be glad your guidance counselor didn't recommend any of these jobs clock in and follow this job is history where ever you get your podcasts you can listen ad free on the Amazon music or one three apps welcome back to help build the slab and guy rise and my guest is your body's Roy at the CEO and founder of tala the company that makes microfinance loans to entrepreneurs around the world from what I gather right the global market for microfinance is massive in minutes from what I've read it's projected to be over three hundred billion dollars twenty twenty six and that's a pretty big global market right you know obviously there's good to be done there but there's money to be made there as well

exactly and we think about this population that are currently operating outside of our traditional financial system and so if we can give them purchasing power imagine what it does for these economists

yeah so I know by this point you have raised hundreds of millions of dollars to finance tala and presumably the money that you raise I mean that's the bank that's what you're lending out right

it's a mix so we've raised our own equity capital that allows us to again continue to expand geographies expand the product side so into things beyond credit and then we've also raised specific debt facilities for each of our markets

so give me a sense of how people are using any but there are some specific examples of entrepreneurs just top of mind and how they're using the service right now

definitely so we've got it a woman named Amy who's in the Philippines she's a single mother and she was dependent on remittances historically to be able to get by on our day to day expenses but then also run her food business on the side and what was interesting is for her during cove it she actually saw a huge opportunity to increase stop food business because of the lockdowns in her community and so you know people were able to go outside of the community and so she wanted to find a way to be able to expand and her family members were not able to send the remittance and so that's when she came to tell and so as a result of her time alone she could expand her business and now she actually talks about it as she is peace of mind she's not having to you know think about the day to day or how she's gonna make those bill payments but she is actually now on to setting up her second location

so now you are in these countries you've got this service is available to buy crunch bars and now let's talk about the business side of what you do because obviously there's a mission and clearly the mission is central to what you're doing you want to build a garage floors who will then hire people and expand their businesses out and it's good for our communities right but you have to run a sustainable business and you raise money from a lot of different some really significant venture funds and and other places at what point does Talib actually become profitable

so when it comes to our portfolio we are profitable


I mean I think again this is this is really critical to us and to myself because the point is to show that these customers are consumers just like the rest of us and so the way we service them and their ability to repay us is actually extremely important to proving that this business model actually works and that these customers are worth focusing on

and what happens to it eventually is the idea that these micro entrepreneurs because I think that's what you call them the ideas eventually they've built enough of a record that when the action to take out a thousand dollars or five thousand dollars they will be able to do that because they have this credit history now

I would say yes the goal is in markets where there are bureaus we are already reporting back to them so that we are really creating that trail for them or that credit history for them I would also say that we've continued to evolve our product and so in that sense as our customers grow and their needs grow so beyond just the I would say working capital needs but actually savings insurance bill payments we've continued to evolve our product and also increase the loan sizes as well

two I know you're in for countries in Kenya the Philippines India and Mexico presumably there are a lot of regulatory challenges right you know you need access to other lending institutions or financial systems in order for your money to be transferred to the lenders and also for them to be able to spend it what are the plans to expand beyond these four countries

yeah at this point I would say that you know our addressable market even across these four countries were looking at already about seven hundred million individuals

round so

you know for the next I would say a year we are staying really heads down and really ensuring that we are really moving beyond credit that we are providing our customers with that full politic set of financial products that they need and that we are that financial partner to them from there once we've really understood how they engage with things like savings and credit and bill payments altogether then we want to bring that entire package to new markets

and give me a sense of what you imagine this to be Amin what could tala E. in you know in the developing world

I think of tala as a financial ecosystem that works globally and so in that sense I would say similar to how we think about entertainment I want to make sure that every customer really has a customized path within their financial lives and so each one of us has different needs has different aspirations and so I want us to be a financial partner that really understands that from that person up and then from there we're able to create different journeys within the Talladega system so some may start with credit and some may start with savings or some may start with a credit card but the point is that there are different paths and ways to stay within this ecosystem

her I'm curious by the way how many loan defaults can you absorb and still be profitable like five percent seven percent ten percent

so far global default rate is actually less than seven percent for tele

well and so that's small enough where the repayments more than cover the losses

exactly and for us the way we think about this is it's a lot about retention so it's really about ensuring that we're not taking a transactional approach to our customers financial lives we're trying to create a relationship with them so we're not trying to make as much money as we can on our first we're really thinking of this as we want them to stay with us and so over ninety seven percent of our customers will come back for a repeat interaction with us

well S. traditional blenders in these countries start to see the success supporter doing means a changing how they're operating

we have seen traditional banks trying to come downstream but what I would say is there still limited by the data side so again the kind of data that tall is using is very different than what a traditional bank is used to and so in that sense they can't completely overhauled their entire system because for them they're still making the majority of their money on the prime customer and so it still doesn't make a great business case for them to go downstream to where we are and then in addition to that it's not just about the data but it's about the experience that you're providing your customer and so to serve the underserved customer you have to really think about what are the different payment options I want to put in place how do I support this customer so that they have the ability to repay right how do I chunk it out how do I stay top of mind how do I show them the importance of our repayment and what it could lead to but that is really around again designing that journey and that ecosystem to really cater to each individual in this segment of the population

it's a such a cool thing I mean essentially this is a massive massive untapped market that you're tapping into and presumably I mean I know that there are others trying to tap into it as well

it is I mean if you think about the numbers we've now serves over seven million with access to credit so it's about three and a half billion dollars in total at this point that we have disbursed that's just a drop in the bucket

yeah Charlie thank you so much

thank you

thanks so much for listening to how I built this lab please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode download if you want to follow us on Twitter our account is and how I built this in mind at guy rise on Instagram guide dot rods if you want to contact the team our email address is H. I. B. T. I got wondering dot com this episode was produced by Carl S. Davis with editing by John Isabella our music was composed by routine

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