The SEC and Ripple Want a Quick Answer to a Huge Question - Transcripts

September 20, 2022

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Is XRP a security? And how do thematic-first investors look at digital assets?

Transcript

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hello and welcome back here's why you should watch today's real vision crypto daily briefing the SEC and ripple call for an immediate ruling on the long running crypto dispute will explain why the battle over XRP could have a ripple effect over the wider market plus we'll do a deep dive into how asset managers see the digital space war in grew and on a cost safe from recharge capital explained that the matic investment strategy and as always we'll break it down into the key takeaways at the end stay tuned I Niko Brugha and with me as always is ask Bennington how are you doing today asked

I'm doing great man it's great to be back with you as always

always a pleasure and we got lots to get to so might as well dive into some price action but before we do don't forget to subscribe and like and click that bell on YouTube or join us at real vision dot com backslash crypto all right on to the price action bitcoin is up slightly over a twenty four hour basis after falling to its lowest since June eight challenging macro environment is definitely wreaking havoc including fears over another significant rate hike later this year it is been a major drag on all risk assets asked what's it looking like for a Furia

well it's not any better on the Ethereum side Nico unfortunately despite the merge being widely regarded as a success Ethereum is down some twenty percent are trailing seven day basis that's worse than bit coin in percentage terms however Ethereum did not test any new lows as we saw lots of volatility and big swings prior to the merge Nico

thank you for that asked one other token we're looking at today is X. R. P. indeed it's one of the best performers of the day up some ten percent and that brings us to our top story we have more news on the ongoing battle that's gripped many in the crypto space and indeed it could determine the regulatory landscape for hundreds of coins the SEC I and ripple the company that created the XRP token have been locked in a dispute over the nature of XRP since December twenty twenty questions included ripple violate the federal securities law

is XRP in Amritsar security or not both parties have not filed filed motions for summary judgment and want the judge overseeing the case to make a ruling now without a trial indeed just so everybody's aware X. R. P. is the number seven crypto currency by market cap but it's not quite a household name yet ask can you give us a brief overview of XRP itself

yeah absolutely Nico XRP was created in twenty twelve is the native token of the ripple payment protocol the single most important use case for XRP at least as I understand it is cross border payment indeed that's the first use case that we see listed on the report website why does all this matter well cross border payments is a highly regulated use cases aren't reliant in my view it leased by adoption of international money center banks you know just a couple of years ago I went and read through X. R. peas white papers on the ripple website and they were definitely focusing on being compliant and now you have the SEC alleging that ripple essentially conducted an unregistered security staff this is obviously something that is not something that would be regarded as a

as as a

as a tail wind to ripple indeed in fact some may see it as an existential threat obviously opinions on this matter differ with the specific thing that happened now why we're talking about this today is that both sides have filed motions for summary judgment the Southern District of New York essentially in non technical terms what they're saying to the court is Hey you guys have the information you need to make the decision right now we don't need a full trial we'll have to see obviously this is a story we'll be following very closely Nico

in ashes before we move on do you think there's any wider implications for the crypto market as a whole considering this lawsuit

well you know it's interesting we're talk about this more in our next story but obviously this entire legal regulatory compliance framework is something that I think is incredibly important I've even alluded to this potential coming civil war in the crypto space over regulation those who believe in the sort of libertarian ideals of crypto currency and those who want a crypto currencies to be regulated in many ways like securities

or with

in this sort of broader purview of the U. S. indeed the international regulatory framework so it's an important story for that reason how much beyond ripple this case supplies that still remains to be seen and of course we're gonna be watching the outcome of this case very carefully to give you further analysis Nika

absolutely and indeed at the SEC is not only turning its attention on XRP it is now also turning its attention on a theory on done done done a bold claim found in a run of the Lil SEC lawsuit regarding even believe things he didn't register his icy over his initial coin offering in twenty eighteen now this just broke yesterday and we've seen many similar cases by the FCC in the past but what's unusual in this case is that in the letter to investors who are sending ether belina it was noted that it was validated by a network of nodes on the Ethereum blockchain which are clustered more densely in the United States than in any other country thus the SEC concludes as a result those transportation transactions took place in the United States obviously there's lots to unpack here asked just what is the FCC claiming

golfers ago you did a great job explain this sort of very complicated and convoluted sounding filing a by the way we should say this filing I came to light yesterday or was filed yesterday and publicly I've noticed from availability yesterday so this is that the quote that is so important I just want to read this to people so they can hear exactly in the language that SEC use quote the US based investors in Bolinas pool irrevocably committed to the transaction went from within the United States they sent their Ethereum contribution to believe his pool at that point there if they're in contradictions were validated by a network of nodes on the Ethereum blockchain which are clustered more densely in the United States than in any other country and here's the killer as a result those transactions took place in the United States so there are some who are reading this essentially has an assertion by SEC that all Ethereum transactions are subject to their jurisdiction now that's obviously a very wide interpretation for what is in fact a very narrow case you have you have this case as you said I Niko where there is a an allegation that there was an unregistered securities offering in the form of an ICO in twenty eighteen but the significance here many are reading into this is potentially much broader so I would say you know look this is a single filing a single paragraph really in that single filing by a single regulator against one person who allegedly engaged in unregistered securities offerings it takes a lot to sort of extrapolate more broadly that essentially all of the room transactions are under the purview of SEC but that's exactly what's being questioned here I think it's it's fair and reasonable to point out that that is still very much an open question you know more broadly I I just wanna give a little bit of context here for for what this space is and and and how we think about regulation so the real challenge here is that ultimately you have you have Congress in the United States that that enacts legislation think it's signed by the president the president vetoes it it goes back to Congress for a super majority override on the veto these are effectively organizations that are at least in the view of the unitary executive theory which is a thesis about the way that top the way that regulators are ultimately responsible for the president United States your representatives from the president of the United States in the form of these regulatory agencies of making these filings here and this is what they do right they file civil suit when they believe the U. S. laws been violated so this is a a really sort of big obviously complicated broader story about how we get to the legal regulatory compliance clarity that we need in the United States you know to me it's just still extremely early Congress has yet to weigh in and pass a law on this there is not the case law in the space there's not really even the the sort of precedents that are well established at the regulatory level and rate regulatory agency level so this is there's a lot to happen here and I think people really need to understand this when they read the stories that sound you know potentially as though they're going to resolve these challenges there's still a lot more to come in by the way we should also had a J. pouch over the fed commentary about C. B. DC's potentially eliminating some of these challenges is extremely early on the technology side which is one of the reasons why it's so hard to get legislation out of Congress about this these things seem to change a month to month sometimes a week to week lots of challenges here Nico this is part of a much broader story that we're gonna be following here intensely on religion because of its impact on this space Micah

salute Lee and it isn't just the SEC that is focusing its attention on crypto regulation it's also the White House now on Friday the Biden administration put out its first ever crypto framework for regulation key takeaways as perceived NBC they want to focus on eliminating illegal activity in the industry they want to introduce strict regulations for stable coins and they want to point out potential significant benefits of ECB DEC IDE digital dollar asked lots to unpack here what why do you think it's note worthy and what's the overall message coming from the White House

well you know it's always noteworthy whenever the White House weighs in on anything you know I mention this unitary executive thesis this idea that ultimately the president is responsible for regulatory agencies in the form of a providing guidance to their heads this is important because essentially the White House is weighing in and telling Congress the way that they should act to enact regulation that presumably this White House would sign but again this is part of a a very long sort of process here

you know

effectively this is just guidance out for those regulators and for Congress to sort of harmonize with the vision that the president has

but

again this is part of a much broader conversation it is still extremely extremely early when the White House issues are this type of guidance I in my view at least are people should not take this to mean either somehow we're gonna get regulated clarity on this two weeks from Tuesday obviously important to point out on this question in the previous question I am not a lawyer this is not legal advice is not financial advice we're just struggling hearing you go to get our heads around sort of these these momentous sounding stories that keep popping up sometimes multiple stories per day around these very much very much open questions about how these things are gonna be handled from a legal regulatory compliance indeed legislative perspective Nico

speaking of which let's hop across the pond where the UK regulator the financial conduct authority is speaking out against F. T. acts saying it's not authorized to offer financial services or products in the UK Bloomberg though F. D. X. is pushing back saying telephone numbers listed in the announcement art there's and that is most likely scammers impersonating F. T. acts this is a really interesting one ask what do you make of it all

yeah it's kind of a funny story I don't recall ever seeing a story where essentially regulators said Hey you guys are conducting business in in our state in our regulatory purview that you shouldn't be you guys need to pull it and then the the entity comes back and says Hey no that's not us that's actually scammers attempting to defraud people using fake phone numbers it's an interesting one and I'm sure we're gonna follow the story will find out what happened here in the relatively near term but big picture the more important take away I think from this is if you are in the particular jurisdiction do your own research understand who is regulated to do business there and who is not that's an important point that people need to make particularly

as we

as we talk about on the show how very early it is in this regulatory regime for digital assets really important for people do their own research make their own decisions about what's legal and not legal in their own jurisdictions Nika

absolutely

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all right let's take a quick look at the the never ending story involving a

Lou not

and terra and their founder do call on the Financial Times is reporting that south Korean authorities have asked Interpol to issue a red notice against you Quan authorities are alleging he is not cooperating with the investigation over the forty billion dollar implosion of terrorists at US D. and Luna while some crematoriums are claiming to Kwan is on the run do Quang denies this via a tweet which will throw up right here now on to our main segments as we could as regulators try to catch up with the quickly involving space asset managers are trying to figure out how to best invest in it retorts capital describes itself as a multi strategy investment firm with the matic first investing at its core indeed one of those themes is the digital space I spoke with founding partner of recharge Lauren coup and its digital asset managing partner John no John Lowe excuse me better known as a macaw say let's begin with Lauren describing their philosophy when it comes to the digital space let's take a listen

we are thematic days just because we do believe that taking a right team is going to be producing long term Alfa compared to being generalised you specially in the hot time like this where the fundamental values of the business that we believe in the sectors we believe will really try to demand and those are hard demands I will continue to push forward innovation as well as the distance record your generation when it comes to crypto we really see crypto as a different form of fintech but also emerging market if you really think about crypto

we really see a us different munitions similar to Brazil or Mexico US made out of government and population we believe that cryptos are the same I just on a different dimension was to centralize participants or citizen subdural countries and we do believe that the first and foremost thing what the country needs is fintech or financial infrastructure and that's why we believe that for crypto what we are trying to focus on is ready to to to finance infrastructure side

no less crypto is still enormous theme if you look at it from that framework how do you think about your individual investments in the space what separates the good from the bad

I think so much of the crypto over the last two years frenzy has been focused on the application side that future promises slash crypto could refill but without the initial infrastructure a lot of those are just dreams Byron be allergies so for us again we sort of stick to a free market access upsell and regulation

and we do believe that crypto is still in the phase one approach when it comes to the development office nascent determinations is an

absolutely fascinating click but let's pick up with what he mentioned about crypto just being a different form of fintech it seems that they are interested in the financial infrastructure when it comes to investing and not necessarily the coins themselves asked what is this reveal about the opportunities that are being presented in the space and what are your general reactions to this clip well you know lord is basically making the cases he said other crypto is a kind of fintech and they're basically investing as you say in the fintech infrastructure beneath crypto currency he goes on to compare them to sovereign states not I suspect regulators within sovereign states might feel a little bit differently about this but it's an interesting metaphor and it's an interesting way to think about it he also compares defy to emerging markets where the really interesting things about crypto in general is that it's truly global so it's a good metaphor in that sense it is in fact a global technology with EM is that's emerging markets there's another way that the metaphor seems fitting I which is that there's high potential for growth but also high risk and it's also in E. Ms as well as in defying crypto more generally very early in the development cycle in fact I think we actually touch upon this in the very next clip

when you take a system and you rebuild it from first principles on that system is ultimately more efficient transparent and some could say also more robust so I would say in general since two different protocols are quite frankly simple this simplicity has actually allowed for these protocols to become incredibly robust and accurate incredibly upon right so this type of infrastructure we have conviction will stand the test of time so we're talking about institutions that last for you know you can thirty to fifty to a hundred years right most fortune five fortune five hundred companies probably don't last for more than thirty to fifty years right we'll we'll probably see defiant elements along this like lineage that has been started in two thousand eighteen last or you know above a hundred years as long as decentralized networks continue propagating all the incentives and kind of game theory affects around decentralized networks allow it to propagate so aggressively also stay resilient to a certain degree

so what do you make of route John's remarks when he says quote when you take a system can you rebuild it to make it more efficient transparent and more robust it will stand the test of time do you think that the current state of defy can attest to that really good questions you know I I think I asked the guys a metric you saw in this clip but I asked them essentially what is defies unique contribution and what problems does defy solve the trad fight does not and as you say Mukasey started by talking about this idea of first principles the idea that if you start building something from scratch you can redesign the effectively the core values and he lists among those core values efficiency transparency and robustness I wanna just talk about each one of those I in turn because I think it's important so transparency has certainly been one metric by which the traditional finance system has failed I'm thinking specifically here back in two thousand eight interbank lending froze up because banks were socially afraid to lend to each other because they didn't know what was inside some of the securities especially the mortgage backed securities collateralized loan obligations CDOs CDO squared all these synthetics so this was a challenge whereby I think you know the traditional finance system failed to meet the goals that had been you know everyone expected of it we didn't think we'd wind up in the situation with an absence of transparency Mukasa is arguing that defy can help solve that I think that's an important first principle switching gears to robustness on the other hand Mukasey is talking about the systems that could last potentially a hundred years I think there are two challenges right now the first to security meaning the technology security we've talked about this a lot in the show the hacks we've seen in flash loans bridge hacks all types of other exploits that we've seen where people been able to effectively steal money from these defy protocols that's a significant challenge and second the legal regulatory compliance legislative things that we're talking about in this very show those are still very much open questions and because of that I think that you know this is a significant challenge for the space it is very early to go to start talking about in my view at least hundred your systems I think that might my next question also unfortunately isn't in this clip but I basically says say I eat you know let's give me one second we just get references here correctly I so I think that the question I specifically asked was about the legal regulatory compliance aspects here but your question Niko which is what do you think of the current state of the defy space you know look I would say today they're certainly not enough evidence to suggest that we have a one hundred year system in place for all the reasons that I just mentioned the security challenges the legal regulatory compliance challenges that we're gonna be following indeed that we saw in many of the stories that came up today Nika thank you for that and obviously we were asking you to look into your crystal ball and that's not always easy so let's turn our attention to the present and where we are in terms of adoption this is what on a call say covers in the next clip let's take a listen

an analogy that we always use as we're probably around where China was in the nineteen so has emerged as kind of a global manufacturing hub in the same way that you know we fundamentally believe that crypto will emerge as a global settlement up to a certain degree because settlements on our blockchain are incredibly efficient transparent arm and cut out all sorts of no middle man fees right no you know shine in the nineteen nineties hits kind of first opening up hazards on mail thanks you know you know limited regulation etcetera on that's that's where we kind of secret right now we see the emergence of the initial financial institutions whether you want to call them decentralized exchanges decentralized lending protocols you know decentralized vault mechanisms etcetera that are all forming this base layer once you move on talk about space where you can build kind of higher order services or higher order protocols so these are things like private wealth management gaining note things that actually appeal to you know than the larger market as opposed to obscure you know financial derivatives but you need these kind of obscure financial derivatives in order to solidify and cover all the edge cases office you know ever evolving system so you know there's going to be incredible use cases for crypto especially you know after the merge after you know the growth of layer two networks after the growth of application specific charting for even more scalability which has been in incredible pain point to adoption and you know in a few years time we're going to see incredibly resilient robust protocols just operate on that are more efficient than their fintech or even traditional counterparts in many sense arms and we'll see you know lots of these higher order protocols being built on top so if you want to consider you know the metaverse or gaming arm and all those mechanisms for kind of these in game economies right like defies a very great template of all were you know financial institution you can deploy in those you know truly digital nations arm and a a lot of this infrastructure is currently being built its still nascent and I would say we're still very early in the adoption curve many degrees if you look at every no addressable metric many people you know interact with centralized exchanges they know how to buy crypto very few people still interact with on chain contracts we expect that number to you know grow ten twenty fold in the next few years as those use cases emerge

I really love this analogy here about how China was in the nineteen nineties when it comes to talking about the digital space adoption curve asked what do you make of that analogy we know China in the nineteen nineties is obviously highly volatile not really transparent I didn't probably have the investor protections that most westerners are used to and the markets were not easy to access I'm not sure if that's the metaphor used dry I think he's talking about the potential for growth that's the important point I think to take from this Nico is that China was rising on a secular basis and what he's making here is effectively the long term case about how the layers of infrastructure need to be built out of the need for sharding and skin but scalability enhancements it's very exciting there are lots of potential use cases here I can see why he would sort of draw that metaphor with China a great deal of potential a great deal of potential for growth something else that got removed from this clip by here just for time constraints I that I think is important to stress is the very next thing I said right after the clip

ended

was that in some ways this reminds me of the dot com bubble

and then

ultimately the dot com bust specifically it was clear to many of us that time myself included that the internet was the future the future of commerce the future of communication the future finance

and yet

and yet people lost huge amounts of money speculating on dot com stocks so once again we've said here before will say it again cabbie out emptor buyer beware I C. bi T. R. it's cool but there's risk people need to understand those risks as well as the opportunities I think in many ways I his China in the nineties metaphor sort of manages to capture both the risk side of the equation but also the opportunity in terms of potential potential growth they could not you know in theory have this sort of hockey stick exponential upside trend that we saw in the internet those are the sort of logical oppositions that we're trying to balance here as we sort through this a lot of risk but a lot of potential opportunity that's what makes the space so interesting echo we will set out and I just want to make a quick mention to the audience there's a lot of talk of clips and all of that starting in just a couple weeks every interview that occurs on the real vision crypto daily briefing with the occasional exception will be live so no more clips you're gonna get it

all

live and we'll have a mark on that shortly

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already before we wrap out today let's take a quick listen to help calm our cost savings we can get to mass adoption in the digital asset space let's take a look

I would say fundamentally maybe we're looking at the two year window I would say right now nice Lawrence said the crypto so large units in becoming intertwined with the global macro system and right now it's definitely under the pressures under macroeconomic pressures arms until those pressures kind of alleviate crypto will be subject and somewhat intertwined on by every available metric for a once in L. twos we do see I'm somewhat of a recession going on in terms of number of transactions number of users and number of a you know total a U. N. that's being flipped by different protocol so it's like a I guess this concept of digital of velocity right is somewhat slowing down but we do see a lot of you know we're hopeful because we see a water infrastructure continuing to be built we we see a lot of new narratives emerging and this is common because you know on regardless of whatever bear market there always be builders and there will always be people who want to innovate and they're always be people to resources right so matching those resources with people who want to innovate right is fundamentally the name of the game I would say in terms of mass adoption right we're we're we're seeing a few narratives emerge that you know place it around realistically the two year mark the first one is like you actually live Sir transaction fees these involve everything from you know the base layer to infrastructure you know like caching infrastructure nope my comment great always is that defy protocols don't really show the historical APR all right I would say that's most likely a caching infrastructure issue that needs to be solved so there are lots of little things right like wallet you acts on how to store private keys right we have all sorts of new technologies like NBC style wallets right arm and we also have you know from the gaming side of things also the introduction of like session wallet so all these new concepts are emerging I would say probably would take two years for all these concepts to solidify and by the time it solidifies all say many people won't even know that script underneath right many people won't even know that the infrastructure is decentralized incredibly efficient what people will know is that you know from the creators creators perspective creators well now you know we incentivize fundamentally to create more because now system exists where they can be appropriately awarded for whatever participation they had right so for example for an excuse right we're gonna see a lot of you know talks about no derivatives and derivatives licensing and how you can combine entities and how you can kind of solves for a lot of pain points or kind of distributed royalties in the whole like workflow my fundamental belief is that if you make people's lives easier right don't just do more things right so that's the fundamental shift that crypto will bring which is whether it's the creator perspective whether it's the financial position perspective you know whether it's you know the distribution perspective more in a different artist at cetera your reason for infrastructure will make people's lives easier and they will be more productive as a result

so John there says that he thinks it's two years for mass adoption in crypto to kick an ash is that the time frame you're hearing from other experts you've been speaking with we are the first thing I would say is that Mukasey mentions the macro economic headwinds at the space the space in which we talk about here on real vision all the time and on this show more specifically you know a **** I'm to be honest I was extremely impressed that he gave that specific answer the actually said two years I wasn't expecting to get that specific you know to me that sounds soon but that's just my god not sort of a formal analysis you know I think to be super cool if he was right on this but you know look I remember something that Dan Morehead said it's salt on the conference I'll just last week with Ralph you know Dan effectively said that the internet isn't just thirty years old it's more like fifty years old and it took us twenty years just to get to a browser Mukasa is talking about how crypto may essentially disappear becoming transparent behind traditional finance

sort of U. eyes user user experience user interface he may very well be right about that but I think that that takes a lot of time to be really interesting maybe you know something that I don't for this two year time horizon but it's certainly an interesting question and obviously we're gonna be watching and monitoring it very closely right here you go absolutely so let's get those horns blaring the spotlight swinging because it's that time for the key takeaways here's what I learned today ask from your conversation with Warren and I'm a call safe from recharge capital financial infrastructure is just as important to development of the space as is market cap or any price action related matter in terms of successive defied John pointed to three main components for the infrastructure of fission see transparency and robustness lastly John and Lawrence are both very optimistic about the speed of these changes being realized over Kasay as we saw compares the space right now to China in the nineties early days but still huge growth potential but in that there's all so costume airing out the spaces Bala tile and a lot of it will fail he also points out that the significant macro headwinds right now are definitely a factor but since we're still two years away from mass adoption all right moving on to the last segment of the show viewer questions our first one comes from Thomas Bartel on YouTube asked do you think what do you against X. R. P. might encourage the SEC to go after a Furia boy that's a really interesting question you know look the the best we could do on that question would be to speculate I think it's probably reasonable to say in the literally most general sense that when human beings experience victories they they tend to want to extend them but beyond that in terms of the legal justification of the legal implications I think it's probably impossible to say at this time absolutely all right now I want you I really this is quite the Twitter handle libertarian they must've got to Twitter really early Oscar is XRP a crypto it looks more like an open source blockchain a C.

D.

a sophisticated database nothing else well that's an interesting question a libertarian you're not the first person to raise that question specifically I think folks in the in the bitcoin community have have made that argument before look

there

are a lot of different types of digital assets yet one of the interesting things to me is whenever I've asked people who invest in the space we're literally putting capital to work in the space their own capital capital that they've raised one of the universal things that is interesting to me is how they never seem to agree on the taxonomy of how he's going to be divided so it is kind of an open question I would say you know for the most part they each different cryptocurrency each digital assets strikes a different balance I what's been called the trilemma I think by ultimately bitcoin at the do try them of created by the talent the terrain which is this this trade off between scalability security and decentralization XRP obviously strikes a very different balance on that than for example if your M. or bit coin especially folks in that space of I would have asked that question I guess the short answer is it depends who you ask but there are a lot of sort of variables here that we're looking at in order to try and make that determination libertarian

awesome all right now onto our final question of the day and this is from our extraordinary in turn maximus if we see ripple win is this bullish for the crypto space overall just ripple

I boy that's that that's a great question but this is so incredibly speculative you know we've talked about on the show before just how early it is in the space it would certainly be bullish for ripple to settle this I guess the question would then be to figure out what you can extrapolate from that ruling and whether SEC would then continue to challenge it whether there would be appeals in the case whether they would continue to file more lawsuits and ultimately some of the broader big picture questions that I mentioned earlier which is does Congress enact legislation what's the what's the rulings from the courts just again very early I think you know if you wanted to take a gas you could say it's probably more bullish than bearish if there were a favorable ruling in terms of XRP but beyond that really we're just talking about is in the domain of speculation here maximus

absolutely and thank you for that great analysis as always asks that's it for today show thank you for watching as always don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel smash that like button and hit that notification bell so you know when we go live and remember this is your show we want to hear from you on what's working what's not to drop a comment down below and let us know your feedback what guest you want to see what things should we cover we appreciate you sharing your insights with us tomorrow we've got more Russian breaking down what's happened in the days since the merch so make sure to subscribe subscribe at real vision dot com forward slash crypto that gives you access to the very latest content including an amazing rob how inventors and crypto with Jarrod Dicker that's coming this Friday so keep an eye out and remember it's free we'll see you tomorrow live on the real vision crypto daily briefing

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