Web Pioneer Legend Brendan Eich - Transcripts

November 24, 2022

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A long time ago in a galaxy the same as this one, pointy-headed nerds built the foundation of the Internet. One of those pointed-headed nerds was the CEO of Mozilla, a co-founder of the Firefox browser and the creator of Javascript. Today he is the creator of the Brave browser, a wonderful privacy-based alternative to Chrome and the rest of the corporate browsers. His name is Brendan Eich and today he joins us to discuss the early days of the web, the mess he helped create and how he is helping to clean it up and lead us into a decentralized web 3 world. Join us for a discussion with this Brave legend on our “pioneers get all the arrows” episode #653 of The Bad Crypto Podcast.


  • 00:00 - Intro
  • 03:45 - Featured Guest: Brendan Eich
  • 11:00 - We created data tracking cookies for people to be tracked across the web. Oops. 
  • 12:15 - What was the intention with the launch of Mozilla? 
  • 16:50 - Why do users want to use Brave over other browsers?
  • 18:30 - Brave is the best YouTube ad blocker out there. 
  • 21:24 - Google Chrome is basically its own spyware. How does Brave improve on the standard Google experience, both on the web desktop browser and mobile? 
  • 32:53 - Let’s talk about ad tech. How does Brave serve relevant advertisements if they’re not tracking users?
    39:34 - What do you think is next in web3 and for Brave Browser?
  • 44:35 - Closing Remarks
  • FULL SHOW NOTES: http://badco.in/653 


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a long time ago in a galaxy pretty much identical to this one some pointy headed nerds built the foundation of the internet one of those pointy headed nerds was the CEO of Mozilla a co founder of the Firefox browser and the creator of Java script today he is the creator of the brave browser a wonderful privacy based alternative to chrome in the rest of the corporate browsers his name is Brendan Eich and he joins us to discuss the early days of the web the mass that he helped create and how he is helping to clean it up in lead us into a dis centralized web three world join us for a discussion with this brave legend on our pioneers get all the gyros episode number six hundred and fifty three of the bad crypto podcast R. for greetings Braves journeyman and Jenny women and journey persons in the journey is a really good fans even like after Steve it's the bad crypto podcast show for the crypto curious in the crypto serious that is brave lord Travis right and I am also brave Sir lord Joel comm our brave fill in the blank mmhm and chose just a city boy born and raised in there should recognize this right this is a fun episode guys I mean long time coming on this one I don't know how we join our conversation after we interviewed Brandon where a lot who is comparable to this guy right this guy essentially was one of the guys who helped build the browser the way we know it right I mean given the Java script he he was really early in that state which Netscape was an evolution of mosaic which was done with the very first that I know of right and then we're gonna click Mozilla Firefox and then click on meet the brave this is a camera that legend he's a pioneer of web one web two and now we have three and we got him on the crypto we're bringing them to you what's really interesting about it is you discover some of the mistakes he made along the way that was kind of hoops especially as it came to tracking behavior and how that turned into a really bad thing but then he talks about what he's doing to fix that thank you guys are really going to enjoy this here discussion with the one and only Brendan Eich it's been more than a hot minute since we have talked about the brave browser insists in fact we've been talking about the brave browser for five and five years I would say a hot minutes as a alternative to using evil Google chrome on your your computer if you want to keep your data and your privacy is the way to go this is not a paid advertisement this is not a commercial this is actual recommendations because we use brave we like and what really excites us is today we have the C. E. O. N. co founder of brave Brendan Eich is joining us right now we're gonna talk about all kinds of things Brandon welcome to the bad crypto podcast


next thing you have Mozilla thing but most important micro unity yeah he's he's got quite a background you were the CTO then CEO of Mozilla and you helped launch the Firefox browser and you're also the inventor of Java script which is the world's most popular programming language so you know that little thing happen and and that were you found it the brave browser so


why why found brave go ahead and tell us your reasons especially after having launched a successful browser in Firefox that you thought we need brave

right so when we did Firefox we were not as conscious about privacy we are now and we did this search here with Google what time was a great search engine and hadn't becoming a big alphabet company full of all sorts of different businesses that all seem to be loss leaders for the ad exchange business which is the main


like a Google we also up


possibly let the privacy conscious users don't extensions for themselves and then grow those extensions we call them add ons back in the day so when I what was alive I central time thinking about two big problems one is that browsers if they get successful tend to be captured by a big tech company like a search company which is really an ad exchange like Google or in the nineties by an operating system company which is really a word excel office suite company not Microsoft and I also wanted to help users have a direct say in not only their privacy but sort of economics on the web and users if they're just eyeballs to be counted it in favor of you know add traffic or ad revenue they're not treated as as first parties are principals in the economics they're just kind of former animals that gets your toward re spring and shiver and that's how people nineties talked about our users they were eyeballs or monetizing eyeballs user attention was creating the data economy data was the new oil which is nonsense statement or or one end up with brave I wanted to do something that was much more directly put users directly in


revenue share for private ads if they wanted it allowed them to directly transact on blockchains with other parties to send money to people support your favorite youtuber so you know the dis intermediated band Kreator economy that's risen it was a long line and and to do both of those things privacy and I would say direct economic user first a previous patient required thinking about how to marry a crypto currencies and security including privacy

right so you know it's always fascinating to you know look being its own I have both been on the internet since the beginning really I mean Joel was one of the first what ten thousand websites it was created or something like that with with world village I got online in in ninety six but I've been paying attention to things and so you know over a buying that scary I remember when when wearing that Bill Gates didn't even think that Netflix that Netscape was even some of the more concerned about and they didn't even have a browser so these are these are yeah this is really early on so you're you're you're really early on in well what I would almost say you were in west point right mosaic became next next do you want to say Netflix's if I say Netflix just made me it's not intentional so what what is that really early internet sorted teach you because you were like the chief architect you were building start really early with with with Netscape so how does that sort of form and and and and then maybe how do I get in the Java script because you you don't build some really kickass foundational things from the internet that we all use today many of us probably take for granted

well thank you as you mentioned I was at my Christianity one more year than it should have been so I missed the founder of Netscape I came in the second year pretty much second chronological year of age and I did Java script in a big hurry because it wasn't clear with Java the Big Brother language from sun to people at Netscape and mostly what's on that we needed Java script but market greased in Netscape and bill joy of sun and I argued that we did for the same reason that Microsoft had visual basic as well as visual C. plus plus and it stacks you had one scripting language that was dynamic and easier to use for great number of people used to glue things together build apps patch things and you have a more expert language for the component builders so that was the idea behind Java script but just can't recapture the feeling of the early web web one days the PC was dominant we all sat in front of big bottle monitor if we played quite right after you we were on the land suite we didn't have necessarily have great home internet connectivity a while had CD bombed the country to get people online through dial up and people are starting to get

you know

faster you know discrete multi tone whatever it's called

recently my own way I found the old floppy disk models like oh my god this one is super early

one of the things this meant was you have to be your own system minister of your home PC and that was hard political but it was good in the sense that you didn't just rent the device from an apple or Google and they treated it like there isn't and your just the sheep this year of the war like I said earlier you really were a participant you would buy games especially but all other apps productivity apps security apps you would go down the fries and biased right so this was more about user sovereign world it was the one the world where you could do your own thing you could upgrade your graphics card you can try stuff you know you can you could participate in in hacking on software for the PC and when I get Java script it became very easy for people to hack on websites in a way that was programmed it was enlivened with no dynamic responses that not just on the server side and client side and so what we're trying to do with that's able to make the web widely in use we wanted to have images that was done at mosaic in ninety three want to have cooking so you could log into your bank and then navigate around your different counties without having to log in every time because the HTTP protocol the state with so it would not remember who you were and there was no way without cookies to keep track of you so in some ways you could say tracking was invented through


the cooking but it was a good kind of tracking it was the first part of the site you go to intensely the site you need to know is really your bank and not an imposter

dishing site

and that's still true to this day so that little cooking too poor what we didn't think about it Donna said that's great a year later and people wanted to fix it but it was too late was that between images and cookies there was an easy way to track users across the world and all of our profile

and then that became so I was saying that was leveraged by you know big tacky and say okay we can we recognize this not just for ad dollars but against our so called enemies

we will leverage in many ways and in that terms used in finances even use that way because a lot of the tricks that were used with with ad tech we're sort of like financial trickery or or you know promising something for nothing and and one advertising technology involved and and Google is a big part of this but there was always a big sea of vendors out there in the so called Luna scape are they all depended on these things in the nineties the image the cooking and scripts Java script and so I created a monster

Hartley created something and you're like well so so is this a mom over you're like wow there's some commonly lingering out there I'd better do something the kind unravel this in is that what you thought when you move them over to Mozilla

I think what was your we we definitely wanted to take back weapons so that the browser was not going to be internet explorer on windows forever which is what people would say it's a are you can't do what's in your browser and get traction Microsoft corner the market and you just give up and they were wrong we show that require parts we restarted the market we showed Sergey Brin in particular and and Larry page of Google and they they liked it so much they make comments like and so far at the same time Steve Jobs saw the value of the web so far was run sometimes Firefox zero point nine or

Bill Gates explorer there was no he's like all right did you find the building's floor and then I got up to like ninety some percent were you at ninety five percent of the people are using that so of course they need alternative because I remember the floods are as soon as I found out about I was gone all

yep pop ups number that lack of tabs and active that's another security holes Microsoft walked away from my they put it under


care of a skeleton crew because they thought they could go back to windows Vista and get good old fashioned monopoly walk in like they had the nineties and they totally missed the web two point no so called that's what John can call it but the point I would just kind of revolution that was happening to Java script and and Moore's law and browse our innovation like in car parks and safari and opera and they also missed mobile right even though they're doing things with the kia they missed so Microsoft might be miscalculated but they they definitely after becoming a monopoly power with the browser we just abandon internet explorer they left it

running and now they got edge which is a stupid you know browser that they they bundle with the machine and course chrome became dominant Firefox you know gently headed share a chrome became dominant a Google is evil they they removed and their monopoly and to do you don't there's no reason to use Google chrome it's harder to get off G. mail and docs and calendar and I'm working on it myself but it's easy to get off chrome because brave is a great alternative and that you know when I started using it there was probably I don't know maybe a million or so half a million users now you got sixty million active users a month I mean an end that's still just a drop in the bucket for what it is easy for people to re claim that their privacy

yeah you're right we have to make it easy to get off chrome which you know in this world we live in when you have some open source project like Mozilla or what Steve Jobs fourteen the web chat which was really cold K. HTML and then crowns worked into a blanket part of the chromium project there's a sort of successful set of genes there it's almost like you know immune system genes or disease resistance genes and those are not going to die so people might complain brings don't on chromium the open source of the Google you know run student but Cronin but it's also what edge is built on Simpson browser is built on it Jandek Sapporo many others so my my point here is that they're successful sort of open source DNA and we all share and you said somebody goes back to muscle up so it's not all Google weren't allowed to go back to apple webkit but then there's what you do with the product that gives the user a fair deal and Madison the Google will not stop talking about walking so called third party cookies also the ones from the embedded invisible pixels the scripts the track you and


think they just kick the can down the road again delayed when they sort of get rid of third party cookies almost every other browser browser out there now does protect you to some degree from those tracking cookies bread does the best job but it's become standard except for chrome because Google is fundamentally this big gas exchange

I actually was told that you will have a warm here I'll have those cookies yeah only the internet could be sure you have I'm sorry I will do that I got my money on instead no that's good so you know now here we are you have brave what would you sort of you know it's not surprising that it's it's better why let's say somebody's tune in to listen about clipped out because they don't even know why we haven't talked about Brady for probably a year so I know Joe mentions it sometimes I guess he doesn't use chrome at all actually my computer downstairs I don't really use chrome but up here only crime was on so I'm actually I'm on now but I I haven't had to brave downloaded yet but I just got it downloaded what would you say to people as to why you want to get on this what's that what's that the action for them why would they even care right so brave

blocks all privacy threats by default and there's tons of them on the web not just third party cookies there's fingerprinting methods there's redirect balance trackers there's all sorts of crazy Harry surface on the web API's that can be used for tracking it can also be used for good if you go to a site like your bank where you want to have that trust relationship so you have to walk the bad good this is an ongoing research and development agent that we do it and you see in the product the former brave shields the wind shield at the right end of the address bar and


that's the privacy part of brain right next to this the bat logo that's the basic attention token that's the feeling we use our interpreter ward's partner bridge our user value proposition but we we made privacy on by default in the web standards didn't I'm sorry next week that we kind of missed out into Firefox did not make privacy on by default safari how do the jobs did they did private when those options are before they were added to Firefox no nonstandard all browsers these are windows to just forget your your history and your don't say many cookies after you close the window and and that's not not that doesn't give you network privacy it doesn't protect you from from this tracking and privacy threat is out there to ads so we've made privacy by the call happened for all the tracking threats is this blocks all the ads will walk you to pre roll ads so brave is the best you to wrap out there by the way this is something people are starting to appreciate yeah


yet the push you need to premium people are saying Hey Brett this is already active block ads

for most freedom I know I'm not going to sever side


so now basically break even sort of like an anti virus malware protection tool completely

that's right now where went into ad tech the malware distributors wanted to get machines taking over for ransomware originally for botnet conversion to do ad fraud so they would put little explicate scripts hidden inside real ads they would pay to run in in cheap slots on online sites and that was that's one of the treasury walks there are actual dangers out there you know people get trapped here it's a real you inspire your boy you there's there's now our distribution to but just a privacy rate also hurts you because we hear about data breaches every year so all these ad tech vendors are trying to profile you for their own business their own exit the some bigger company there return on the venture capital investments most about dying now in its consolidated around Google and a few other big players Facebook meta but this privacy cost is not just that your might have a data breach or you feel spied on YouTube we targeted by creep yet also that those scripts that keep running target you place those ads burn your batteries special mobile because they're running the radio a lot more like forty percent more than if you block them and so you get a real performance winning page load and rendering you get a great battery savings with great and this is measured independently by out that you could call green specter in twenty nineteen they sure nice chart on android great was the winner in terms of battery savings in our own research team studied just him the same results so it promised result we walk so many scripts and reduce the traffic on the net and this also can use your data plan that you pay for that and everybody does pay alternately somehow that there's a real savings to the car I was in privacy means power battery savings means faster it looks forced

but in there's a lot of the things that are built into the browser that that I really like when you go to the settings but you know I like that you continue where you left off you can easily import all your bookmarks from you know were you haven't so you can go to chrome and export your whole HML file and import them and organize them here you've got rewards for if you decide to watch ads but you've also got you know a built in wallet you've got built in IPFS which is useful for an excuse this is there's a lot of functionality all I've I've only encountered I think one chrome extension that didn't work in my brave browser but ever all the extensions for all my wallets in in last pass and all those things metamask they'll work great

we should we took out the Google account system support that extensions can use but most don't because that's actually tracking back there too what when Google realized that you weren't logging in to the browser you still log into chrome that right corner they said well darn it will just walk you in to our you know the browser any time you log in in any tab to YouTube or G. email or one of our other log in services and that track to cross all tap so Google turn chrome into by where they made it part of their ads


I can understand if they have public company but that's the opposite we once we ripped out all that that Google account tracking and that's maybe what broke that extension

so I want to talk a bit more about mobile right because it would seem to me that you use a desktop or laptop brain is a great solution but if you're using your mobile device which everyone is it almost seems like race pretty much the only solution because it speeds everything up and kills your battery less right so it's like you know maybe talk a bit more about mobile because I think that's just completely really away years ago

yeah that's where the real battery savings comes in because all this ad scripting overload that we blocked really does run the radio on the radio so number one or two consumer of the battery the screen is usually the number one consumer but when you load a bunch of scripts in chrome it's gonna go crazy on your radio that's going to drain the battery so it's also delay page load sometimes because the mobile what came later while the publishers didn't update their designs while many have by now but you have pages on mobile or never load because of all this crazy scripting and affect us we block all that and it's a huge savings your battery it makes a lot faster it's much more responsive we do a great job with you too so I I do may I keep an eye on the two bath just for misery in the see what the ads pre roll ads are in view of what the judges but it's a bad app so in great we have something I will bring it and it's already on iOS playlist if you are a you tube video or another video on a different site you'll see a button up in the address bar on the right to add to playlist and you can open a video on the playlist and it for me seamlessly switches over to a custom video player there's no ads and you can save it for watching later you can play it when you're offline on on a train you can do all sorts of things that you should be allowed to you cannot easily get the file out of it but that's okay you're just viewing it this is something that any web browser she'll do with any web video to put out in a standard way since conform way without fear and that's what most of you do this so playlist is something I encourage people to check on an island coming to android it's really great for you too instrumentalist watch it later if you get interrupted you don't to worry about losing where you were in there you too powerful or webapp it's in your playlist

I'm just drawing a follow up on this is not one of my favorite you know online website apps that I use and actually work with them in the past is clouded and what I like about cloud and there is a if I'm on my mobile device I don't need a high res image to download right I don't need a huge video to download a lot of times these websites are so filled with just she is set up for some it's four K. here I am looking at it on some you know super all in so is that something you guys are gonna be integrating or some similar to that because it's almost like the automatic resizing of things save so much space

we looked at it


Google used to have something like this too the problem is it's a huge privacy yeah if you don't do it right and you end up tracking what users are viewing by looking at you transcontinental in a in a way that scale across the world and efficient so we keep looking at looking at partners like cloud player and trying to get the privacy right but what what we would mainly benefit promise just walking so much stuff so we've brown by the way in doing something called great news which is another one of those batteries included features and great if you scroll up the bottom of the new tab page you'll see a new speed and it's matched on your device just like a private ads awards that you can opt into and that's probably new speed is is based on RSS feeds around the web remember RSS and it it has some privacy preserving properties it doesn't just go across our thoughts here profile of you on the server side and you can customize it you can add your own needs you can take out some of the pizza we think might be good for you but the way we curate those is not by procon units just by sending catalogs down few same with private ads and and then letting local machinery match or in this case very simple what logic just match what your history seems to be against what you get in the news feed that includes all the news sources


just pick the ones that match your history and


that's part of our ears to block things and to use a smarter way of getting content to you in one of the things that I want to mention on news that you are there is we do try to keep the images from being oversized and sometimes we find new sites like you said stripping the poor came down to the bone for no good reason so we actually act around that so part of dreams to be a a muscular client that has a lot of sort of smart filter rules that we can update quickly a day or two to shield your privacy to get the right image sizes to you to block things and save your battery

so if Pham a EM show on my screen here right now and you can see on this browser I've I've had eight thousand sixty one trackers and ads blocked save two hundred and eighty three point two Meg of band within seven minutes of time this is a computer I've had for just a few weeks so this is a new install which is why my brave rewards are new I just looked at my my iPhone in on here my brave browser says ninety six thousand trackers and ads blocked almost three great big of estimated data saved on our of time and and I've got rewards in my my brave wallet is well so let's talk a little bit about that the rewards the the attention token and how we are at and how it's used within the ecosystem

so when I said I created a monster omitted the worst part about Java scripts role in ad tech was that it it you know with something where the the browser was actually in in the middle of all these ads being placed all the tracking happening first the targeted you and then depending on what ads you've viewed or the cheating that they do to try sending you view that would


jobs he was involved there too so I felt like doctor Frankenstein a bit right they have been killing monster because that was not only draining your battery and exposing all the threats we talked about you weren't you weren't out in the summer as a real person who should be given part of the revenue so from the beginning with brave I wanted to deal the user into show not just tell that we put the user first a lot of you know upstart browsers and privacy products will say you know our product which is the best and we put the user first but talk is cheap we actually pay you at least as much weight as we get from the gross ad revenue than that I think aligns our interests and what's these conflicts of interest that big tech companies have where they become adversarial toward their users in order to serve their shareholders and the bottom line so we do that with great rewards optional system we started out with bitcoin and this was in twenty sixteen we build a system where you could bring your own bitcoin you could send it to creators website owners really had signed up with us and it was pretty much directly was true multisig wallets it go help this with so that was good security and no no no bread custard in the middle it was like a two or three multisig scheme but we found that between the bitcoin block size issue and the congestion in twenty seventeen and

the fact that

people want a whole bitcoin because you had to come back and he's just you don't want to send it to somebody some random publisher you want to keep it because it's what what more now like what current market so we realized we needed a new smart contract system a new approach that included the browser as an element in the system because you cannot to ads in attention to privacy on the blockchain public blockchains unlike the cash what's your introduction but in general distributed public ledger is a decentralized public ledgers are public and that means that you can print the user by looking at transactions over time Chainalysis does this people discover who was behind the mount **** hacker where the funds went things like that people are looking at more apt to expand its ones and where they might have gone so

there's been some

sort of problem for privacy if you try to do everything on chain also like I said I got expensive on big corn in twenty seventeen to twenty minutes after that so we always included the browser and sort of the ultimate edge in our decentralized system where each browser each supercomputer in your pocket or your laptop can do a lot of local processing to match ads against catalog and to make zero knowledge proofs are are are signs you're blind signatures certificates and this is a low cost but it can preserve your anonymity it can keep you shielded and yet you know you into the revenue well and that's we don't work for everyone to see opt in private ads system you can also add your own you can chip or give a recurring monthly contribution your creators we've got I think one point three million creator sign up a lot of them are you too because they either never got monetized or they got demonetized without your truck platform but you do still wear the videos are hosted well in the comments are so we provide those creators and alternative means for their pants and support that is the founder creator direct well I mentioned and once you corner relationship with the creator you could even go direct to yourself custody brain wallet to their creators wallet on chain fast chain would work please you want to sell work for paving the way toward usable some custody and direct your crypto through great rewards were getting users from a very large funnel up to sixty million it's been fluctuating on the monthly happens that's kind of a difficult number I can explain more and we're getting those users funneled into crypto and eat in winter or summer or nuclear winter or worse whatever happened FCX whatever happened there it is causing a real chill right now we were bullish on crypto we think in the long run this is the right way to advance the user's interests above all the central powers

website basic attention token you can see you still have T. acts there so you need to change that to W. T. S.

yeah if the self service system where we're going to try to decentralize the threat of keys but they did verify but but we have no other relationship with them on on that have an account with them ready assets with them and I'm glad to say that because a lot of people are in big trouble now unfortunately and it's it's a real hip to crypto

for you okay


I want to ask about how would I know some people say well wait a second so brave doesn't know anything really about me how can they you know show me ads that are relevant to me because here I am when I'm on Instagram I for one I I'm way too much **** on Instagram ads because it's like it knows me right and I'm like oh hell yeah I need this freaking whistle thing there's a help relieve the stress right so how does Brady give people relevant ads to products or services that they need when you don't know anything about

good question so when you think about the way I tech works on Instagram or Facebook Google they're collecting all this data about everybody and they can put in a big database and they can do studies and regressions and saying Hey this person looks like that person that person bought a car this person might buy a car what's your car at that's powerful but a lot of it is spammy they they guess wrong about you they show you ads that you don't like or they hammer you with the same out over and over that's called retargeting what we do doesn't collect any data we don't want to be a mini Google then we have a hard time convincing anybody trust us even if we did share revenue so we make the magic happen not in the cloud but on your device the way to do that is not to have all the ads on your device because they're big and they're video or web pages we sent links to those ads with key words next limit one per row in a in a catalog in this catalog updates couple times day it's not that big stuff and use up your data plan this is kind of like what browsers due to keep track of our increasing threats will sink rousing lists or our own filter rule lists for the ratio we we update these these data files and the case rewards there's a catalog ads you can get identified by their location their web address answer key words so then the challenges do the matching with local machine learning only when you turn on awards happen it's like keeping a separate history in all browsers keep history usually for two weeks what braver wards all wander because your value makes them back thirty days that's a common look back err err in ad tech but the separate history can be cleared by you it doesn't reach out to us we don't look at history but the local machine learning in the attic and then say Hey you can look in your car sites I'm going to take the role in the catalog has the car or the making model for that matter she word that our direct sales team already did the artwork so what we're out there doing direct sales or working on scaling is out to get more demand partners in but also privacy instead of surveilling you would pull your data and our cloud we push out the offers to the ultimate adds the browser in your pocket and that's where the magic happens and then if you do see the ad we have to confirm that that's where that line signature on the premonition comes in in the future is our knowledge group so there are great tools in the cryptographic tool kit that have been developed since the nineties and especially being used in blockchain projects for keeping you anonymous keeping you your identity unlikeable from the particular things you so all we have to do is get honest pounding of the views for an ad to show the ad buyer that you had performed they don't need to know about you they might like to cause a lot of herbal knows you that way we don't have that information our servers we don't want them to have it we don't need them to have it and the Alcorn then they should be happy with with what they bought and that's where we share the revenue

Brandon what do you think the number is of active users that would put you on Google's radar and go this is a threat

your Google knows about it but I think when Firefox was still you know possibly saying they have like forty fifty million monthly active users one it also kind of a prattle number some reason ours is it was falling in monthly active user is somebody who use you once a month or more while some users will use you everyday but Sunday and that's a really valuable use almost daily whereas other monthly active users just start their windows PC at home and it fires up you know part boxer braids from the system tray but they hardly touch it that's not a valuable users so monthly active users is a tracking number and it's not really wild on but if you get into hundreds of millions you're on Google's radar you get sixty million around there like we have your own rules right

so how how do we you know that this next step is is gonna be the question that you know is in your on your mind that you're going to sleep every night is how do we get to you know a hundred million two hundred and fifty million in our daily and how do you obtain that

yeah I do I do think about slot because at some point you're up against the device makers and they tend to put chrome in there on the android OS as the people even though they've been spanked by the European company competitive practices regulator for doing that that they're not supposed to force chrome as default and in the U. S. there's been some water up you know concern on iOS on the iPhone and iPad it used to be only safari browser I was fourteen a couple summers ago change this was good because you are users want trade to be altered finally we could do it I think it happened in part because of competition I think it happened also due to some what's a moral pressure not the politicians are that moral but the much congresspeople on out in interest on the letter and that letter they said you should allow users to make a different browser or mail out be the default and by the way Braves policy I helped draft that letter which there's a mix of Halsey and more competition and finding the right partners that we can use to grow and to get at work or play thank you and that's on my mind as we get bigger because the bigger you get the harder it is to you know get on to the the phones replace chrome I have to find partners who will help distribute or offset distribution costs

this is

this is true especially now it was even true back in the Firefox days the Firefox grew organically very big before chrome finally I think two thousand eleven start by the way

Google has

hatred distribution queue because on windows you know to add the Microsoft so Google's and they're distributing crime somehow advertising doing sketchy deals the portion on your hard disk

so me ask you this so so what do you think is is next what's what excites you the most kind of moving forward with brave because you know you've been here since the very beginning we're moving in the web three you're the one that's helping you know a lot of ways help content creators own their own contents you're kind of the web three browser my mind right Jones my joke Jones a big fan of Brady's uses it everywhere in yells at me when I'm not using that and I'm like oh yeah I need to get off the ground yeah so so what are what are some of those things that might excite you the most about where your goal

yeah I think we are starting to be the web three browser nobody knows what tree needs exactly but the best way to predict the future is to invent a gallon K.


our name said and the general notions around there are solid they're self custody sub sovereign identity user sovereignty be able to go direct on a blockchain be able to use I can't ask for instance for data storage without any a certain someone out there is going to censor you or some no nation states going to do something dire do you we also toward built in the desktop premium that I mentioned that for private windows or network privacy what excites me about web three is that I think crypto gets to go social and he needs to write a script that was just a bunch of hacks addresses and no signing transactions and it's kind of low level and sort of complex it's like the internet before the web browser before mosaic let's say it's like the old command line internet I used in the eighties and you know email was around then so it's kind of know your but use that we kind of missed the quality is that but a lot of that stuff like telnet and F. T. P. kind of died for most people and that's I think what needs to happen with crypto needs not to drive it to be abstracted civil fight so you can do what looks looks more like an after direction or compound transaction a meta transaction instead of doing these little details signing in confirming transactions with Texas dress and using people and trusted identities synonyms as well as real names to interact with people and build up reputations it's gonna be super important I think it shouldn't belong only to Twitter sorry on shouldn't belong only Facebook this has to be something that's decentralized and it's it's hard to centralize right might my best idea right now is that you actually don't want to try to get to compete with Twitter I don't wanna do a brave Twitter

I want to do

a friend in brave this aggregates social and then lets you re aggregated Sir like that news great news I mentioned where the RSS feeds can be matched against your interest locally so I want my Twitter friends if they moved to mask on I want to keep track them through my private address book which I which I have for my mac mac OS and iOS I want you but even resurrect the monitoring where they seem to have disappeared as they left Twitter got kicked off Twitter I can find them I can superimpose comments from different sources in some ways you can imagine


future becomes just video hosting it works for this social aspect where people comment and that could be lifted out of YouTube in into the browser and and the comments to restore not yet bass or even on your Dropbox or iCloud because they aren't that big the personal Twitter post thank you even with images is is less space than my home you know quarters and videos of my kids so there there's something to be said for user first that uses all the tools you since your private cloud use I. P. address which is not a blockchain but it is a peer to peer network uses blockchains it uses you know the browser storage uses the browser's ability to compose and decompose this aggregate content

well I'm gonna I'm gonna preach it everybody and say if you're still using chrome you don't need to it's a it's a real easy switch gang to export your bookmarks and then bring him into brave go to Braves dot com you can download it right here and your your hero Brendan so much so that when we did blockchain heroes all those many years ago I've got to show you this one of the heroes was inspired by you his name is courage and he's he's got some blue eyes on this guy here I mean he's like all muscle

groups get like that

no no I'm not at all did we we appreciate you come to mind when I want to say I admire that how small you are over there courage

are you still with no I I I wasn't eating as right as I can to be later in life now you too well

season one person in my life thank you so much

thank you every one of

always great to talk to the movers and the shakers of the technology space what it one or to speak to Brenda needs also a real down to earth humble dude in spite of all of his massive accomplishments I loved it I would never mind again this is killing me and I love you how you mentioned about love how he's like oh my god people are using the image and the using Java script to track people I got around all this sounds like he literally stopped him and said I gotta make this right you can work on a solution a lot of times people what they would do is look at how much money we can make now with online advertising I want to become a truly a matter and not but instead he said not let's get this money back to the people let's build a better solution and we're gonna do it together answer me hi this is this is what I have here my book yep see that's fine I just raise my heart way up there is the right time it's often a high I can smell what's coming out from under your your no no no I took a shower today we don't proof of that I shall be Ellis sure but they're not back yet


said time is running out to get your bad crypto nifty club membership if you want the Brad mills and F. T. way hopefully you heard that episode number six fifty one that was released you're just a few days ago and and got your back crypto N. F. T. membership card this is the N. F. T. that we're getting ready to release of course you can't hear it right now but it is a two minute video N. F. T. it is a bonus add on to the episode exclusively for those of you in the bad crypto nifty club you're gonna get this error dropped to you for free how do you get it well it real easy you need to go the bad crypto podcast site on on cut dot F.

M. it's bad crypto dot uncut dot F. M. and then you're going to go into the the N. F. teens and I believe right down here at the bottom that's the one you want you want the bad crypto nifty club point zero zero two Rapti that's all it is you could pay with ease

the card if you want once you got this you're in the club and the free air drops that we send go to people who are holding these so what's your excuse go get it there where it says so right here on the screen

Hey what about this we haven't talked about doing an N. F. T. for for Brendan Eich what if we take the blotching heroes and make a brand new version of it and create a new courage only for the uncut folks just just on poly gun I like

I like that you know you got two reasons to get your bad crypto nifty club membership we're going to create another variation of courage blockchain hero and it will be air dropped this will be our first will this be the first call I got no we worked with Limpo ended a few exclusive variations on their platform but this will be the first one for the bankrupt a nifty well yeah and then all those sixty million people over on bravery to get one because well all sixty million couldn't because there's not that many of those that crypto clubs available but thanks for tuning in I'm really glad you tuned in and you know Brandon is amazing I'm really pleased we had a chance to

absolutely and we appreciate you guys thanks for bearing with us your favorite defi du fight you're sure but in DARPA

I like the I like those names to I make sure I go over a few five stars is preferred and we also we have a bunch of voicemails that we're gonna be playing for you or maybe we played on the last episode again or more we use them because we recorded this interview before Monday's news shows we want the news to be current you know we're out of order so that we could be in order and if that makes any sense to you that you are already following our instructions

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