Daily Wire Backstage: The Fall of the West
Hey folks, Ben Shapiro here, don't miss our latest episode of Daily Wire backstage, join me, jeremy, boring Andrew Klavan Michael Knowles and matt Walsh as we discuss everything Afghanistan ranging from the lack of a president of the United States at this point to the deaths of american service members, to what american foreign policy really should look like in the long term, should be moral, should be reality based. Should it be about pullouts, Should it be about maintaining troop presence? We get into all those issues. It was really heated and really interesting. Make sure to take a listen.
Some days you can't even muster up a good fake laugh. Welcome to the Daily Wire backstage to the fall of the west. I'm jeremy boring, joined today of course by Michael Knowles, matt Walsh Andrew Klavan and Ben Shapiro, our show today is sponsored by Express VPN. It's time to stand up to big tech, protect your data at Express VPN dot com slash backstage. Let's get right to the show. Yeah, yeah. Mhm. For tonight's show, Daily Wire Members can enter your questions into the chat box over at Daily wire dot com and we'll answer them throughout the night. If you want to go a little deeper into the cultural and political issues of today. I highly recommend you check out our readers pass program because it's the best way to keep up with the world that never stops spinning. It's easy to sign up, you just head over to Daily Wire dot com For $4 a month, you will get a readers past and unlock all kinds of exclusive editorial content that unpacks trending, political and cultural topics pinned by everyone from Candace Owens to Ben Shapiro, two special guests like Dan Crenshaw and Andrew Klavan. I consider him my guest because we never see him anymore except once a month when he comes in to do this show.
When you sign up with readers past, you also get access to the morning wire newsletter, monday through saturday email covering the top stories. You need to know, available only to Daily Wire members. All of this can be yours for just four bucks a month. So do it right now. You will get a free four week trial. If you go to Daily Wire dot com slash subscribe and give you a reader's pass today guys. Only a short time ago, the President of the United States came out and spoke about the horrific bombing which happened today in Kabul. We don't know of course the exact death toll at the moment, but it seems like they're already 13 american servicemen killed and the President's speech I thought was one of the more bizarre speeches I've ever seen by a president and I'm saying this in the year 2021. So I want to get quick reaction. I'm assuming everyone had the opportunity to review the president's speech. Ben.
He's not sentient, he is not capable, he's not competent. He came out, he looked like a mental patient. I mean he really did. He looked like he was barely awake, he stumbled his way through a bizarre seven or eight minute speech that contradicted itself about seven different times. He tried to rely very heavily on the, I'm empathetic joe routine. But the minute that the questions began, all of that went out the window and he became combative joe um he had nothing of merit to say. He has no defense for his policies because his policies are garbage. And most of all if you're an American enemy, watching the president of the United States on the same day that 13 American Soldiers are killed, 12 of the Marines and you're watching as the United States turns tail and runs leaving 1000 plus american citizens behind in Kabul plus an unspecified number of thousands of american green card holders plus hundreds of thousands of people who will immediately be slaughtered by the taliban. And as it turns out, the United States government handed a list to the taliban of all the people who wanted to evacuate and they know precisely who to kill. By
the way, this is just in Kabul, the americans all throughout the country. We aren't even
talking. Yeah, that's right. If you're watching this as an enemy of the United States and then you watch this addled old feeble minded man walk out and barely make it through a sentence. You're thinking you're like homer Simpson with a hamburger right now. Osama bin laden said in 98 99 after bombing kenya and Tanzania, the embassies there And after the mild response from the administration said America is a paper tiger. I don't know how if you're an enemy of the United States, watching what has happened over the course of the last month, you can't look at the United States and say that is a nation that I can do anything I want to, this is a nation that is ripe for a fall and this president is ready to let it happen
through. Not unfair what been saying, I mean the president literally said twice at least in the speech that some americans would be left behind after the august 31st. You know, I've been struck all of this. I agree with everything Ben just said. I mean the absolute disability, the guy, the guys are walking uh dementia, you know, case and it's it's very painful. It's painful to watch. I can't, I wish I could even feel some schadenfreude because he's in the opposite party to
mind. But I don't still our president, still our president and
that really is disturbing me. But all throughout this I have been deeply struck by his emotional detachment from the tragedy that he has and he alone has brought upon this country because it doesn't matter what you think of the foreign policy where you think we should stay, where you think we should go. This was a one of the deepest active. I I can't even use the word incompetent. That's too, too kind. It was a criminally uh, cavalier, cavalier and incompetent and the and the detachment from responsibility that he evokes the jokes that he makes when people say, how are you going to get other people out? And he says, well, you'll be the first person I call, ha ha ha! And what really bothers me about this more than anything is not what it says about him. I feel that he actually represents a large swath of the democratic political class, uh, that they don't care about what's happening in overseas. They don't care about our foreign policy. They don't care about the way we look to other people. They are so deeply concerned with transforming us into a woke uh socialist, you know, european style democracy, that they really don't think that we should be meddling anywhere in the world.
Because meddling in the world is what great nations do, war is what great nations do. Imperial placements in various places is what great nations do. They have to do it. They have to do it because they become responsible for the rest of the world. And they just don't care. And I think that in that sense, at least he is the head of his party. He does represent what his party thinks when you have nancy Pelosi making speeches about how proud she is of a Budget busting $3.5 trillion Joe Biden is he does represent the party that he leads.
Yeah, I think uh as far as joe biden himself goes, I thought the most, the most profound moment of that press conference, profound in all the wrong ways was the visual a lot of times with joe biden. Now there's the visual first, it's just not to make too much of the of the of the body language part of it, but just looking into his eyes, you see a sort of emptiness there. Like he doesn't exactly know what's going on. But there was one moment where he's clutching onto his folder and then he ducks his head down in just exasperation like he's giving up in the middle of the press conference, uh because he's getting a little bit of pushback from peter Doocy. And I thought that was that perfectly exemplifies joe biden's presidency. And then in the broader question, not to jump right into a debate here, but picking up what Drew said that these are, you know, our leaders are woke and leftist and that's why they don't want a medal in the world. I also think, I agree with you. That's also why it's one of the big reasons why I don't want them to be meddling in the world is one of the big reasons why I actually think that leaving Afghanistan was the right thing to do, although executed in a horribly incompetent way. But when I think about, you know, a pride flag hanging in Kabul, these these are people who even if I agreed that having an empire overseas and being an empire and pursuing our imperial ambitions was a good idea in principle. What I know is that these people are not capable of doing it and what they want to export is not what I want to see exported by the United States of America. I find it shameful and embarrassing.
I have been, I think as charitable as I can be to joe biden. I think I've been as charitable as anybody on the center or the right of the political aisle. I haven't, I have not blamed him for problems that I think were many years in the making, that were not his. I have not even blamed him that there was some chaos or that there would even be some violence in, in a withdrawal from Afghanistan that both parties have been campaigning on for a long time now. However, there needs to be a basic level of competence. There needs to be a basic level of engagement. It is simply, I think even if you're a leftist. Even if you're a democrat, you have to acknowledge that there were really basic things that biden could have done that would have greatly mitigated the risk that would have greatly mitigated the violence and what is happening now in Afghanistan is largely on him. I am sympathetic as matt says, I am sympathetic to the arguments for withdrawing. And actually I'm sympathetic to those specific arguments. As I outlined in a long column, which I thought was fair minded about this whole thing. Watching that speech tonight.
I think it may have been the worst presidential address I've ever seen. He just wasn't there. He was cavalier. He was showing the world that America is inviting aggression from everyone else. It was, it was, it was pathetic. It was pathetic. We should note that the president Uh, didn't come on stage for almost 25 minutes, 25 minutes late, which this isn't an appointment you want to miss. Right? When you, when the President United States addresses the nation about the loss of our service members overseas in the middle of a crisis. He was boastful about the size of the airlift. How many Americans have been withdrawn, which is a
thing that happens with incompetence is that they create crises and then they want credit for the heroic actions that they take to mitigate the crisis that they themselves created
dynamite below the water line of the titanic, blew it open. And then he's like, look how many people we put on the lifeboats. Guinness book of world record.
Uh and and then the president had this bizarre moment, which I think we can play. Yes,
I do. Because look at it
this way folks, and I'm gonna have another meeting for real.
President. Had another meeting for real For real. We're not lying this time. No, no, no, not like all the times when
I look at a timeline of what this administration has been saying since april and they have not said a true word since april. In april, the President of the United States said that we would pull out in a considered fashion, that we would do so in a rational fashion, that would not pose a danger to the afghan people or to the United States. That was a lie in july. He said this would not be like, like sounds like South Vietnam. They're like Saigon. That was not only a lie, It was alive by multiples. Because when, when we pulled out, you can at least say that the Viet Cong for all of their evils and there are many of them had not actually attack the United States homeland and uh and killed 3000 americans in the process. Uh he said that, he said in on the 18th, nobody had died knock on wood. He said that the airport was safe. He said that the taliban were working with us. He's just a damned liar. They have lied all the way through this process.
And, and so when I look at the failures here, I think there's three levels of failure, I think that most of us in the room on the ground, two of them will probably disagree on the third. The first level of failure is the tactical, I think it is impossible to disagree that the tactical failure here is epic and immense. And the fact here is that every single person in the know knows you do not evacuate the troops before you evacuate the citizenry. You cannot do that. That is idiotic. That is defund the police except on a global scale, right? That's getting that's leaving the place to the criminal. You don't
give up the air base before the air
right. You don't evacuate bagram airbase and restrict yourself to Kabul International Airport which is one runway with no actual buffer zone. Like you have to be a complete and utter asked to do this, joe biden doesn't care so care. I mean that's that's really what this comes down to. There's no empathy from joe biden and his empathy extends to he does not care about what happens here. He's made his decision and damn the consequences. So the tactical nature of this is idiotic. The notion that the Afghan military collapse because they're all cowards. They took on 50,000 casualties. 50,000 dead between 2015 and 2021. The United States in that same period took on less than 100 dead. So they were feel they were shouldering the burden.
The reason they collapses because joe biden decided that not only were going to withdraw our troops, which you can make an argument about. We're also going to withdraw our close air support. We're going to withdraw all of the civilian contractors who maintained their own air force so they could not even fly missions in the air, which was their chief tactical advantage against the Taliban in outlying areas. So immediately the USs we're gone, we're taking everything with us and they disband. They're going okay. So all the tactical failures I think are pretty obvious and easy to spot. Then there's the moral failure when you make promises to people and then you botched the promises. No ally in the future, has any business trusting us? I do not know why our allies would trust us. I don't know why if you make promises to people. We screwed the kurds. We've screwed the people of Hong kong.
We screwed the people of Afghanistan. Not like we've screwed the people of Vietnam. Like how many more people can we screw before all of our allies start to look at us and say, you know what? I think I'm gonna triangulate a little bit here and see what I can get out of Russia and china,
you left the one lie you left out by the way is the lie that this that somehow our allies are all on board with. Yeah, parliament of Britain of great Britain, our only real friend in the world besides maybe Israel, they're they're actually holding our president in contempt.
And then on and then on the same moral level, joe biden keeps saying that we went there to stop al Qaeda and prevent this from becoming a terror haven. I've noticed a few terrorists in Kabul lately, I don't know about you guys, but I've noticed like a few like the Haqqani network that's actually running security in Kabul which is Al Qaeda and ISIS, which is there and the Taliban who like last time we trusted the Taliban to stop terror, it ended with a couple of buildings falling down in new york and miracle. So like on that level is just asinine,
I would have to uh agree with most of what you said, but when it comes to the Afghan army and this is really almost irrelevant to what happened today because as you point out, I mean this is just a total tactical failure in terms of getting people out. The fact that we have our troops, they're facilitating the evacuation of just masses of of afghans, many of them citizens and we don't know if they helped us or not. I mean it's it's hard to believe that they're all interpreters or or whatever. So there's there's just no plan in place, which is disgraceful and insane, but as far as the Afghan army goes, I mean I understand the point that the air support was was taken away. The Taliban didn't have any air support. What we're told anyway is that the Afghan troops outnumbered the Taliban by 3-1. They supposedly have 300,000 strong versus Less than 100,000. Uh No, I can understand when they're, when they're training to have the air support. They don't have it. But that's a huge disadvantage that they have to accommodate. But you would think that as a military defending your nation, you would try to accommodate it rather than just give up in two days, which is exactly what they seem to do. I don't, I don't think we can put all the blame on the Afghan army like joe biden wants to do but to absolve them of all blame.
I think isn't fair, pretty
hard to think. The one thing the afghanis are good at is fighting and I really don't think that this is a failure of the Afghan army, I think it's a failure. You have to remember the taliban blend in with the people, they terrify the people, the warlords who the armies were hoping would fight for them in the villages immediately surrendered because their people are are you know basically in the villages that people are afraid of the taliban. They will welcome them back. They're also fighting Pakistan Pakistan's Secret Service which is mostly Islamist is backing them as has been backing them to the health. I I don't really believe, I've never seen the Afghan, The Afghani fighters give up on anything.
If you if you talk to the people that have been over there in our military training, the Afghan army, uh, uh, almost everything I've heard from people that have been in that position and I've heard, I'm sure we all have talked to quite a few. They will tell you that it's very difficult because, you know, very often they're they're sort of a mercenary basis. If they don't get paid, they want to show up. There's a big problem with, with drugs, huge problem. Uh, and just talking to people that have, that have been in the position of training. What I've been told is that a lot of these soldiers are training, just don't seem all
that interested in Radical radical religiously based Guerilla armies tend to do pretty well in organizations against organizations that don't have a great hierarchical structure. For sure, no question about that, the question as to whether they just sort of gave up and ran away when you structure an entire military around a certain style of warfare and then you just remove that style of warfare and you say we're leaving,
I agree with this, but the second point is also very important, which is the one thing that they understand in cultures like this is power dynamics and it's not short term power dynamics. It's long term power Dynamics. People who I know who were there in 2015 when Barack Obama first gave his, we're leaving speech said that almost to the day Within 24 hours, all of the green and blue, the friendly fire attacks started happening immediately. All the village elders in any rural part of Afghanistan stopped cooperating with the United States military. And when they would say we we've given you money, we've been sighted, we've been fighting on your behalf for years. Why now you won't even talk to us, You won't take our money, You won't say anything. You know, some of some of the soldiers have started shooting at us. Why? And, and the afghan answer was because you're leaving and when you are gone, it is only a matter of time before the long term power dynamics of Iran on our border of Pakistan on our border. There's no question where this goes. Once you're gone. And if you're not going to be the power center, the people who are going to be the power center are people who will chop our heads off and rape our daughters.
Like you can't leave us in a position of a power vacuum that we cannot ourselves fill their, the, uh, the Afghan army. Of course, it's not a westernized army. Of course, it's not a sophisticated army. Of course, it's not a tremendously lethal army apart from american close air support. American logistics. American intelligence, which is a huge part of it. Of course, that's all true. Since it's true, uh, since we're not talking about people who only kill combatants. Since if you're an afghan soldier fighting the taliban and your village falls, you may be fine. But they're going to rape your daughters and kill your sons in that situation. You've left them very little given the realities of the society in which they live. You've given them very to the point that they're a mercenary forces is fair enough.
But it is part of the failure of our strategy there. It's not the afghani Army's failure. And I don't mean listen, I'm not a big fan of the Afghan culture, but still still when we created a mercenary force because they had to be loyal to us instead of loyal to what they
have been loyal. They also
their tribal identity. And
there is no real national identity, no real
right. Which brings us to the sort of geo strategic point, which is where I think the real conversation lies, which is what were you doing there? And I think there are points of agreement here too.
Let's get back to why we were there. What were we doing there? Because that's a pretty big question before we do it. I owe our friends over at Express VPN a little bit of endorsement. Big tech is more powerful than most countries are and they profit by exploiting your personal data, it's time to put a layer of protection between your online activity and these tech juggernauts and that's why all of us here at the daily wire, including the use Express VPN. Think about how much of your life is on the internet. I mean the sad truth is almost every site you visit. Almost every video you watch. Almost every message you send. It gets tracked. It gets data mined and when you run Express VPN on your device, it doesn't because the software hides your I. P.
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so on the geo strategic point, I feel like there's places where we're all gonna agree here too and that is number one, it's not the job of the United States to build democracies out of places that are not right for democracy. Like I think we're all on the same page there And I think that if you are going to seek to build regime stability, That is a very, very long term process. We currently have 26,000 troops in South Korea still. And where we pull our troops, they would immediately be that country would immediately be under threat from North Korea and China sponsoring it. We still have some 3,034,000 troops, 32,000 troops in Japan. We still have some 10,000 troops in Italy so we can have air power over northern Africa. In fact by the time we left Afghanistan, the number of troops that we had on the ground official, it was 2500 that ranked at number nine in places on Earth where we had troops. So the question is, what exactly were we there fore? And if the answer, which I think we all agree was to kill terrorists, make sure this doesn't become another haven for terrorists. Then the question becomes so what was the dramatic urgency in pulling out considering that we have been experiencing year on year, fewer than 20 combat casualties and zero since February of 2020?
I think the the question of why we were there, we all might agree on why we would like to have been there or why we were what we wish the reason were. But I don't think that America was clear on that because The argument that we were given in the early days of that war was we're going in there to kill Osama bin Laden and the people who were harboring the terrorists that took down the towers. Then in 2005, at George Bush's second inaugural, the mission was redefined. That was the freedom speech. The word liberty or freedom or or liberal was used 49 times in that speech and he made an audacious claim and I think a ridiculous claim which is that tyranny anywhere on earth is an existential threat to the american homeland. This was a radical extreme of ways that we thought of adventurism and spreading your ideas abroad. It was obviously untrue by the way, because not only do we tolerate certain authoritarian regimes, we've actually installed many authoritarian regimes that have never threatened us with so much as an insulting look, this redefines the mission as building not only in Madison Ian democracy in Afghanistan, but ever talk about it forever worry now, he said, we will abolish tyranny on earth, which so long as man's nature has fallen, I don't think is going to happen and it will commit us to work forever. So he redefined that then I think the american people got pretty sick of that in the years that followed. Barack Obama famously campaigned actually to beef up troops in Afghanistan and to take troops out of Iraq to restart the war there. But then he wanted to pull the troops out there as well. Then the mission donald trump runs on pulling the troops home, which was popular in both parties at the time. Then joe biden obviously maintains that view.
Now we're told we have to stay there for the Afghan women who suffer a terrible plight. Nobody is denying that. But women suffer a terrible plight in Pakistan as well. And this is this is not fair saying that women suffer in other parts of the world is true enough. The women suffering today in Afghanistan are suffering specifically because of an action that we've taken. There's to withdraw the truth. I think that's off his point though, That's his his point, which is really fair is that we live in a place where people vote and part of running a war is political, you are dealing with people who have other things to do. Like raising their Children, do their jobs and you have to be able to convince them that you're there for a reason. And the reason in Afghanistan has repeatedly changed. It has grown, it's shrunk. It has, it's been different than it was when we first went in there and then to turn to the people and say how dare you abandon this mission. So I know, first
of all, I agree with the political failures of our leadership class and of the media in redefining the mission. I mean, again, I think we all mainly agree on the idea that we didn't go into Afghanistan to create a thriving democracy and originally protect women. That was a good byproduct of the fact that wherever the United States boot steps, things tend to get better. But that wasn't the original mission. We didn't go in there because we're going to free women. We freed women as a consequence of going in there. Right. So and as joe biden correctly, but oddly and non sequitur fashion pointed out if the attack was launched from Yemen, we wouldn't have been in Afghanistan from women. Of course that's true. The problem is this whether or not the american people are properly informed about what they think the mission is, the rest of life exists just because we create a vacuum does not mean that no one is going to fill it just because people in the United States and in our leadership class misunderstand what the mission is, does not mean that when we remove troops, that does not become a terror hotbed again and china doesn't take advantage of that terror hotbed to grab. For example, all of the $85 billion in military technology we just left there including high tech crap including drone technology, which they are going to immediately reverse engineer. None of that means that china doesn't look at what we just did two the afghans and say, okay, well Taiwan's right there and all, we have to just move right across the strait and you ain't gonna do nothing right.
I mean, it doesn't take much of a mind to discover this. All the terrorist groups on earth look at this and they think that we are weak. So regardless of how this was pitched. And this is my problem with how the Afghan war has been pitched I think for the past several years. The first pitch that was wrong was this is about a war for establishing democracy in Afghanistan. You're right. Then there was a second pitch and it was equally stupid and the pitch was the war of 2017 is exactly the same as the war of 2010, which is a lie. It is not true. The United States had taken down its troop presence in Afghanistan from six figures down to about 10,000 by the time trump left office down to 2500. And so when people said this is an endless war and I said, what war do you have? 2500 people stationed in a place with zero casualties for 18 months. You are safe.
You were safer up until Barack until joe biden took office. You were safer being a soldier in Afghanistan that you were being a cop in Chicago and it wasn't particularly close. Okay. That the notion that this was an endless war that had to end right now. It had to end right now. And if we don't have it right now we're gonna be putting thousands of troops back in. It is a lie. It is untrue. We have again, we've been losing on average before the supposed wonderful deal that trump made with the taliban which I opposed and I was clear about this when trump was in office. I perfectly consistent on this. Before that deal, we were losing 10-12 guys a year. That is horrible.
Every soldier lost is terrible. That does not constitute a full scale war. Full scale war is what is happening in the beginning of the war and we're losing hundreds of guys per year. Thousands of guys in some cases. But
I think you have to say, I agree with your point on the losses and the difference in the nature of the war, but it would still be endless. And that is
what the americans. So you remove all of our troops in South Korea is an endless war. Well guys,
military, I mean there is an act of civil war going on right now in Afghanistan while our troops were there and as we learned today are interesting, the civil war in Afghanistan is between the people we went there to depose and the people who have been supporting for. So it's been it's also between ISIS. Right? As as joe biden actually rightly said the Taliban are bad guys, but right now they are our allies against ISIS in this particular battle that we had to deal with today. So all I'm saying is it's complicated, it's not just the Taliban versus the Good Guy afghans and us, it's ISIS, its other Islamic groups, it's unaffiliated group.
Right? So our goal was not to, but our goal was to destroy all of those associated terror groups that you just mentioned, they do have a common interest against us. Now the taliban have a common interest to a certain extent. But by the way, by the way, I'm still not convinced that the taliban didn't let these guys through the bomb bomb could be interesting. But even even the, even the head of centcom said that today that was asked directly, did the taliban just let these people through? They were the ones screening everybody at the outpost. But I think
this is the bigger political problem here. So sure you say, well, we have endless troop presence in
Korea, literally everyone or wherever we have troops in dozens and dozens and dozens.
And I do think they're a bit different than Afghanistan. But I grant
The 100 troops on the ground in Syria.
But I think but I think this is and I think the same people who want to pull out of Afghanistan want to pull out of Syria. My point is this our Founding Fathers warned repeatedly against continual warfare to said James Madison said there is no greater threat to liberty than continual warfare, Washington jefferson reiterates Washington and many other founding fathers too. And you might say, well, things are different now than they were then? Fair enough. My point is this and it's to the political point, the american people are looking at this war in Afghanistan. They're not seeing any particular reason to stay there. They're even looking at the argument that you have to prevent another 9 11 and saying yes, Saudi nationals were welcomed into Afghanistan. But they then came to America. They trained in America. They were welcomed onto airplanes with tools that we're not even illegal to bring on airplanes at the time. Why do we have a Department of Homeland Security? Why can't we deal with these things without having an on the ground presence in Afghanistan and all I'm saying is whether that is true or not.
They have the Founding Fathers on their side. And
so I think we need to answer that. Currently. They don't. The founding fathers went and killed all the Barbary pirates.
No, no, no. He knows is right about this. Part of the thing is this was before the invention of the airplane. The world is a very different place. They were talking about a country that was protected by two oceans and and they really did if you
take the example of Barbary
still the Barbary
pirates were a threat to our trade and our commerce. That that there is a tradition in America of isolationism. And uh as far as I'm concerned, I would be okay with either being an isolationist nation or being an imperial nation. But I can't stand this doing both. I cannot stand the promises. I can't stand the changing motivations. I cannot stand an uninformed public, a public who doesn't know rightly rightly. They do not know who we are, we they do not know what we're what, what kind of country we're supposed to be in the world personally personally, I think that empire is unavoidable and I think the chinese are about to prove this to us by taking Taiwan and then we're gonna have a much easier time defining who we are. But just remember just remember that these wars were never paid for when when George W Bush was asked by the leftist press, what sacrifices are you demanding of America. His answer was essentially we don't have to sacrifice to pay for what? Well no wars are expensive. You do have to pay for them.
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a couple of points here, first of all on the uh, this idea that Afghanistan turns into a hotbed of terror if we're not there. Well, I don't find that terribly persuasive because the entire Middle East, much of africa I mean there are many places that have become hotbeds of terror currently are. So are we supposed to invade and occupy all of those places? I would also say, well,
I'm gonna I'm gonna do what I don't know this, but okay, this argument of bad things happened everywhere. Are we supposed to go invade and occupy those places is revisionist. No one's making an argument here that we need to go invade Afghanistan and occupy it. We went to Afghanistan and we did occupy it. You can, it's the equivalent of saying, uh, you know, I shouldn't have had sex with Maggie johnson back in junior year. Uh, and uh, so therefore now on my child's 10th birthday, I'm going to walk away from my child and Maggie, whom I married and the mortgage which we took out together. Because I've realized I never should have gone there. And when you say, hey, but no, no, no, you marry. If you actually went there, you actually did something there. A consequence that that
goes goes to my next point. And actually that analogy I think is important because uh I don't in a marriage, you make an undying eternal commitment to a person at an altar before God, I don't believe that the United States of America has made that kind of commitment to any foreign nation or can. And in fact, if any government, if any, if any politician tries to make that kind of commitment to another foreign nation, it's not legitimate. And there's no reason why it should be respected. And you talk
about a million people don't get killed and raped.
You talk about, well, we're in South Korea. We're in we're in Japan
Germany and there were all these places.
Well, there's an obvious response to that is maybe we shouldn't be there either. I mean, it's their country. The,
So can I take that. First of all, I just want to ask you a question on that specific point. So it's 1953 we signed the I mean, since we're doing revisionist history now, it's 1953, we signed the armistice agreement off on the 49th parallel in Korea. And we say now you're president of the United States is the answer, Okay, we're done out. We have no interest here. Well, that is how you lose Cold Wars. Yeah,
No, because it's but it's not 1953 I'm talking about in in the year 20
nine and I'm talking about 2021 do you sign an agreement to say the Taliban gets to take over this country and bring in exactly the same people who did 9 11, which is exactly what's happening right now. In in
2021 I would take our troops out of Afghanistan. I would do it a lot different than than joe biden. And I wouldn't know what
strategic interest is served by pulling our that's the question from Afghanistan.
Well, it's first of all, it's not only a strategic interest,
but what is the strategic interest? There's
there's there's two points here. Okay, this is a strategic point I guess as well, the idea that the United States of America should be perpetually holding nations, foreign nations into existence, which cannot exist on their own without our help. I just reject that strategically. And I rejected philosophically and I just don't think that that should be our role unless as Drew says, we're going to embrace it and say, you know what, we are an empire and this is what we do. We build empires, we take over, you know, we're going to take over Afghanistan, it's ours now, it's our property. And if that's the argument that, okay, let's make that argument. But you gotta do. But
our empire is a uniquely american empire. So Germany west Germany could not have survived as a nation. If America hadn't left its troops there, it would have fallen to the soviet union in minutes. If the americans had pulled out, we we think that like Berlin is in west uh Germany by the way, it's in east Germany. And we had, you know, we were cut off from access. We flew the Berlin airlift uh to keep that city free. Um And it's not just that if we had left the next day, if we if we had left five years later, if we left 10 years later, if we had left 20 years later. Uh similarly back to the south Korea example, it took, first of all, a world war to drive the Japanese empire out of south Korea in the korean war to keep the north and the chinese and Russians from taking south Korea 33,000 american dead just in that war and then occupation by our troops, not, not in the old imperial sense because we didn't run their government, just like we didn't in Afghanistan, but in this uniquely american way where our troops provide the opportunity for that nation to form, we had to do that for 42 years before South Korea became a functioning democracy and after they became a functioning democracy, we've continued to have our troops there for 35 more years questions so that that democracy could learn the fact that it is.
Do you think that it is America's duty to actually perpetually hold other countries into existence to keep them in existence? Is that
if we're if we're the ones who broke the country in the case of Afghanistan, whatever, whatever the political argument for why we went there, we went, should we have stayed for a week and then left? That's a conversation that we can Prescriptively apply some of those lessons to future problems. If you can't retroactive, would you really say we broke Afghanistan, it wasn't exactly a thriving place when it was not a thriving place, but the problems faced by the current listen, the the median age in Afghanistan is like 18 years. We've been there 20 the people in especially urban Kabul. The people in these cities that are falling right now, they're not like the guys who were there when we went in, this isn't people who ever lived under the taliban. This isn't this isn't women, hold on, this isn't women. Whoever were these arguments, these arguments do not. The reason these arguments don't hold water is because they're all really about the Cold War and the Cold War was in a fight between two. My argument about Afghanistan well, but we went into Afghanistan. So we went into Afghanistan, we went into Afghanistan wherever you think, well, you know, that's the second part ever. You think we should have gotten second party held it for 20 years. We held it for 20 years.
And now in leaving, we are the cause of the terrible things. I don't agree. I don't agree with this at all. I know is was right about this. It was the place is a mess. It was it's going to be a mess unless we stay and it was a mess before we got there. But the thing about it was a mess before we got there. But we went Germany. The thing about Italy is all of these places were places we occupied to keep the Soviets and the chinese out. And the thing is, I know what I'm, what I'm, what I'm saying is we are about to be entered a new cold war. That I think there's no question about it. We're already halfway in it.
However, however, that the Taliban never and even islamism never constituted the existential threat to our way of life that we basically sold it as having and that's that's the key thing here, that's the key difference. And so in other words, if you're going back 20 years and saying that the arguments were wrong. I'm saying right now today, as we understand that an actual thing is occurring. I'm sorry. We we do not have a responsibility to every country. Even even if this thing we say, we have no ability to every country we have a responsibility to the country we are in and have occupied for the last 20
years. Let's put aside for a second. The quote unquote. We have a responsibility
to Puerto rico. That doesn't mean that we also have a responsibility to Costa rica, Puerto rico is our protectorate. No, no, I don't agree
with this. Well, I mean here's the what hold
on. So we're not responsible. This is a legitimate question. We're not responsible for what's happening right now. Well wait a minute, wait a minute. So much of what's happened. This is what's a little confusing about the conversation. So much of what's happening. Is it matter of this incredible. I mean this is criminal incompetence. We're talking about this is not just like, oh I left my shirt at home. You know, I forgot to bring my tie to work.
This is an because biden's argument is unimpeachable like this. Yeah, actually that's
completely insane. So there are few things that I think we're also conflating one is the the morality of the situation. Whether we owe it to the people of Afghanistan to stay there forever because they're the people of Afghanistan and they came to rely upon us and I think there's an argument to say that the answer is no, not in perpetuity. We're still America. We have our own interests. Then there's the question that I actually want to ask, which is why is it in our interest to turn this back over to the Taliban? Have it be a terrorist hotbed, incentivize china to go and get all the rare earth minerals incentivize china to invade Taiwan. And why is all of that worth it to take 2500 troops out of position where no one was dying? That's the thing. Nobody seems to be able to. I think we're not talking about 100,000 troops there. I'm not talking about tens of so joe biden's excuse for this, Is that if we didn't, Then tomorrow there'll be a vast wall of Taliban fighters coming over that wall.
There is zero evidence of this. None. Okay, we've had a stasis situation in Afghanistan effectively since 2014, that pretty much nothing had changed. So what we are talking about, we talk about ending endless wars. I think that I think that's a bumper sticker slogan because it does not count as an endless war. When you station a baseline force of 2500 people there with zero casualties for a year and a half. Is there any reason
to think that that would maintain though, given that it has maintained its not south
Korea. It has maintained maintained maintained for the last 6-7 years. I think that there is. I think that there is very little evidence that the Taliban were on the verge of radically overrunning the country. I've yet to see Joe Biden present any of that intelligence evidence. Do you think
If we stayed exactly as we were 10 years from now, do you think we've now gone 16 years without?
I think that what I think what you would see is what we've typically seen in situations like this. When it gets a little hotter, we put in a few more troops. When it gets a little colder, we take out a lot more troops. I don't think there's a situation in Afghanistan or dumping another 100,000 troops in there because we had forces on the ground, constantly constantly degrading the Taliban and the
Afghan army at the cost of thousands and thousands of lives a year.
We're going and killing the town. So this is So my question again is not, we can go back to the fundamental principles of you know, when do we owe things to people? I think also, But but I think that, you know, drew you mentioned the Cold War, the world is filled with threats on a consistent basis. This is where you and I agree with you and the notion that the Defense Department exists mainly as a make work program for people to sit on a base in Alabama is silly. Okay, this has become the democratic talking point, which is that our soldiers should never be put in the line of combat in favor of american interests unless those interests are existential to the United States. This has never been the perspective of any nation that has been worth its
salt. Well, this is the part where you and I agree. I mean, this is this
Is something what I'm saying is it seems like a fairly cheap deal to me to have been stationing 2500 troops in country providing air support, close air support with some military contractors at the cost of like 0.5% of the United States budget every year to keep the Taliban from taking back over the country and re bringing in al Qaeda and re bringing in ISIS and turning I mean, we, you know, much money we have to spend, how many troops get to put back into Iraq just to quell ISIS, remember you being in favor of that because this
is all based on the assumption that the situation right now would maintain in this tribe ballistic hellhole country in the middle of a civil war between all these various different factions. I just don't think first of all, there's any reason to think that that's true. We were going through six or seven years in the grand scheme of history, is nothing at all. So we're going through a period of relative
20 years in the grand scheme of history is hardly anything at all
agreed. But so we're going through a period of relative calm. If we can call it that in Afghanistan. I don't think there's any reason to think that would, that would maintain that way. There was always this threat. When you send our, our guys over to Afghanistan, there's still at least at a serious threat of being killed in service to this.
Relatively, they really were not, They really were not. You have 2500 troops there and zero combat death since February 2020. Well, but that seven years prior, what
I'm saying that that could change at any moment. There's no reason to think that
that's true. That's true. That's true, literally anywhere on earth. That's true, literally anywhere on earth. Tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow, tomorrow. It's not, it's not
true. It's not Japan. Japan. I think
china decided to get militaristic with Japan and they have fired some missiles into the sea of Japan. You could get militaristic pretty there And everyone knows in South South Korea is the biggest hot spot. We got 26,000 troops there as a trip wire. But you, you
would agree that Japan and Germany are not nearly as volatile as Afghanistan.
volatility is the reason to keep the american presence. The volatility is the reason to have when we, when we invaded Afghanistan, we had to use hand drawn Russian era maps, we had no intelligence. We knew nothing about Afghanistan. We knew very little about border Pakistan. We had very little eyes into Iran Pakistan by the way, a nuclear power with 75 nuclear weapons who already their intelligence service for this whole time has been sympathetic to the Taliban. And now and now they have digested all americans. But since biden's withdrawal in the
last two weeks, you guys make it to different argues because you're saying on one hand, we should stay there because it's peaceful and nobody's dying. On the other hand, we should stay there because it's volatile.
Something that americans America's late on it and we were keeping a lid on it. Now you remove the lid and negative
and it's in America's strategic interests to have not have a they're not having because this goes back to the political failure and it's a political failure that has gone on since the Bush administration. If you can't, you can't say two people were going in there to get bin laden. I mean, this is still a democracy of some sort. You can't say we're going in there to get bin laden. Oh no, we're going in there to build a civilized country. Oh no, we're going in there because we need bagram in order to fight the chinese uh, interest. Now you you can't do that and and succeed unless unless we understand ourselves to be in a conflict of great powers. And this is where you and I agree. I think that's great. The conflict of great powers is inevitable and we should
start a conflict.
It's always here. It's always here and we, and we should start and we should start to talk like that. I never want to fight a selfless war ever again. I never want to hear you broke it. You fix it ever again. I want to be when, when my fellow americans send their sons and daughters into harm's way. I want to know that they are there for this country and for our interests and part of our interests are, is fending off china. I wish most of our major corporations knew
This. I will say you better have a damned compelling reason for pulling out 2500 troops From a place where they are the lid and there the Cork in the bottle, especially when that is now going to subject 19 million women to rape you better have a very good reason and better not be a slogan like no endless war. That is not good. You know, you
guys keep saying these things slogans, all of democrat, all of democratic politics slogans and
bumper stickers don't
be a dick. No, no, I'm not being a deconstructionist. I'm talking about the reality of political,
um, why do I have a question, When did this become about whether uh, like just because the american people like a thing does not mean that they are correct you like the thing, but the american people like their
nation's course, doesn't it? I mean, I think they still, I know that especially for recent decades there is this idea
That foreign policy they 100% do not. What's the last congressional approval or what's the last congressional e approved the war?
Well, this wasn't a war. I mean that's the other problem. Was this award? Was this an
occupation? I understand what Michael if we're talking about the realities on the ground. When was the last time the american people approved a war? But this gets
this gets to Jeremy's point. I actually think Jeremy made a very good point here. Which is when you said yes, America is an empire but it's a special kind of empire. And I jokingly but not so jokingly said yes, it's special because we don't admit that we're an empire and the recent problems. The reason that we don't admit it by the way is because our nation is founded not to be an empire. And all of our most revered founding fathers said don't do this. Don't have perpetual war. Don't have entangling alliances. Don't go
overseas. Then they proceeded directly from one coast all the way across to the other. But they but they all the way down
the hallway but they but they didn't occupy it as some imperial territory.
They would bring it into the wait hold up. They
would and as an imperial territory and literally federal territory agreement until they became states, are we gonna make Afghanistan and state. I don't think if you
go if you go to the making Afghanistan but they get a hold on between talking about empire and wait, wait. So you're saying that it is not imperialistic. You're saying it's less imperialistic to make a thing a state.
Yes. By definition
becomes a nation
because it's part of the nation. But if you hold
it is that you
know, the the british
empire turned us into british sense. If you go, if you want the World War Two memorial in Washington, D. C. It says we came to liberate not to conquer. And and that's been basically our idea with all that's why our troops have been there with everywhere else. Well, okay, then what Knowles is saying is right that the problem with our empires, we don't admit it's an empire, not Ferguson makes this argument all the time and I think he's got a point and I think if you don't make the argument, if you don't tell the truth, the american people who still do vote for the President of the United States, who still is the guy who runs most of our foreign policy are not going to be convinced. And you can't you can't accuse them of bumper sticker slogans when you you're
selling pretty much everything else political. You're basically
selling my bumper sticker slogan themselves. I still think just were operating with the assumption that because the situation was a certain way, it's gonna maintain that way and that that denies the risk that our military was in over there. I know that it's been a certain way for a few years, but I don't think we can do, I don't think it's fair to do because part of this is we're sending our sons and daughters are actually going over there and there's a there is many of them have died in the last few years. Not as many, but there's always that threat of something terrible happening to them as we've just discovered. And on top of that as well. I mean, there are other things too that we haven't brought up, like one of them again, talking to the veterans that served over there even in the peace time, they'll talk about things like um you know, I don't know, they have to come home traumatized because they have to overlook child rape, which is which is utterly within the widespread in the afghan army and the afghan leadership and they're just over there, they have to just deal with it and they're told not to mention the threat of being killed by our supposed allies. But even even that alone, like
piece alone to me means send our guys home because I'm not, they gotta go over there and and look the other way while Children are raped left and right and it was as widespread as that. Um
wait, hold on, you're gonna be a real estate can be a moralist here. I mean I need one or
the other. You're answering your answering the moralism with a sort of moralistic argument on the other. It's not a it's not a moral answer though, to say x people do bad things. Therefore, let's create a vacuum in which people who didn't do those things suffer. A horrible moral concepts. I'm
trying to I'm trying to bring it back around to focusing on the actual human beings, our countrymen and our service members who we are sending into these situations. So when we say there hasn't been a combat death in six or seven years, I think that
Overlooks in 18 months, 18
Months, a few for, you know, relatively has been gradually through for six or 7 years. When we say that that overlooks some realities that they were living with, that, I think we have to at least
we're gonna have this conversation, you know, putting the military in place is always a question of cost versus benefit. And so you're lining up costs. And I'm saying that there were actual benefits. And I think one of the things that's happened here is that what has happened in the wake of the United States pulling out is being labeled a potential cost to the United States when it is an actual cost to the United States, meaning that what joe biden has done is in the aftermath was pulling out and as they bomb american troops and as the Taliban takes over the country again. and as Isis comes back in is Al Qaida comes back in. My argument is pretty simple. If we hadn't left, this wouldn't have happened. And my evidence for this is that if we hadn't have left this wouldn't have happened. Joe biden's argument is if we had stayed, this would have happened. He's going to have to prove that case stronger than I think this would have happened because the counterfactual is already here, it's happening, it's happened the taliban have taken over the country. So I already know that if A then B. He's saying if not A then B.
He's gonna that doesn't exist. That's an alternative history. And the last data point that I had was that it wasn't happening until he pulled out the troops. So unless he can show me which he has not done extremely compelling data that leaving 2500 troops in place was going to result in this straw man argument. We have 50,000 troops back in there fighting close hand to hand combat in Missouri Sharif. I'm gonna need some actual evidence of that. Not some bullshit from Joe Biden is justified the fact that he wanted to pull out in 2010 and can't get his head out of the grass.
This is also why that I don't want any more selfless wars. I don't want more selfless wars. Okay, you can prescriptively take that wisdom into the future. This wasn't a selfless war,
it is a self unanimity about going
in but it is a it is a very specific, it is a selfish withdraw. We actually do. We don't bear. America is not responsible for every humanitarian crisis in the world. Were just responsible for the ones that we create. We are creating this crisis if we had gone in, tried to kill bin laden and left. If we had used airstrikes and left, I don't buy the Colin Powell. If you break it. Uh we bought it if you but if you break it created hold it, let a generation of people come of age under american protection and then just decide on a whim for no strategic upside that you're just gonna bail on them and leave them all that last that last part about no strategic upside. Just for a minute, I think that argument is basically saying we have to throw good money after bad if we go into a place and we have a a american interest and we cannot find, we cannot serve that american interests and we withdraw because we can't serve that american interest. And there is uh and the country reverts to what it was before we got there. You know, I'm not sure I can hold us responsible for that were responsible for the two million people who died in Southeast Asia after we abandoned uh the South Vietnamese.
Of course we of course we we bear responsibility. We are not wholly response. I mean, we bear
responsibility context. The question is, are the people who are pushing to defund the police responsible for an increase in crime? To my mind? Sure, yeah. Okay. Well, this is the exact same thing internationally. If you remove the cops and then people go around killing other people.
But it was the top of the world police. We are the cops. We went over
and over in the position. We don't just take over that. By the way, created. By the way, you can make the case, you can make the case that if you had to redeploy the people like to take the domestic context, if you had the police in one area, right, you have to make the decision. We need to redeploy the police from here to here because it's more important to have them over here or the cost that we are undergoing in this city, you know, for the police to many cops are dying. We're moving them and we're putting them here. You're still responsible for what comes next over here because you removed the police, but at least you can say the costs here, well, worth the benefits here. The point that we're having in Afghanistan right now is that the costs here are accruing not only no benefit but negative benefit.
So, I think the question that is coming up is what changed not only what changed in the last, 1020 years. But what changed since 1950? What changed since the our our establishment of a sort of empire overseas. And I think we should we should define the terms because we're using different terms for imperialism and nationalism. When I say that texas, the acquisition of texas is not imperialism. Of course it's imperialism. When you go and Lincoln thought it was imperialism, but when you make it part of the nation, that is a very different thing or even hawaii for that matter, make it part of the nation. That is a very different thing than the british nature. The point Well, I'll show you the distinction when great Britain holds India as an imperial territory. It is not holding it as a part of the british nation. It is recognizing this is a distinct culture, a distinct country, part of its own thing, but we are holding it, we are the british empire. We don't really do that with texas as distinct as texas is we say it's all part of the american issue.
Now, we hold imperial territories like Puerto rico, We've held other imperial territories that because of our national origin, we gave up and we have always felt uncomfortable with in the 19th and 20th century, but this brings us then to the question what changed between 1950 today and the question And it gets back to your point drew and it gets to your point also met, which is We were in the middle of the 20th century were a strong superpower with a lot of national cohesion that knew who we were. We knew what it meant to send truth justice and the american way overseas. We can't even put that in superman movies anymore. They actually cut that line out to your point, man, you say, what are we? Therefore we're gonna raise the pride flag on the embassy in Kabul, which we actually did. I don't think a lot of americans are going to get behind that, that has become a sort of imperial flag, but a lot of people don't support. And so I think it's very important if you want to choose or we just a nation or we just an empire or is it inevitable to become an empire, which I think probably it is for great nations. What is the empire? What is it? And I just think if you're in a situation where we can't agree on anything in this country, we can't even agree on the definition of man and women at this point. You've got major political activists with the support of the Democratic Party burning down the country for 2020. I'm just not sure that we have the ability to project that oversees
this, is not sure we know what we're projecting this I think is an enormous, enormous strategic and ideological mistake. If the notion is that the weaknesses and internal failures of the United States do not allow us to either pursue a strategic interest overseas or to say to the taliban, sorry, whatever it is that we are pursuing is better than what you are pursuing, then I think that their failures on the right as well. I'm not a fan of, I'm gonna
Make this one point. I'm not making even a prescriptive argument here, I'm sorry. And the descriptive argument is this 70% of Americans wanted out of Afghanistan and the majority of Americans, both parties have wanted out for a long time. I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying. I think the reason for that is the collapse of our cohesion and we had a lot more of it. I don't think I want to I want to speak to this the first time I talked about our pals over at policy genius and the reason is because they paid for this also because I personally have used policy genius to great effect. My little daughter was born as I have told you before a year ago and I realized I Essentially have done nothing to provide for the people that I love in the event of my untimely demise. Policy Genius makes it so easy to do just that you can compare quotes from over a dozen top insurers all in one place. Why compare because you can save up to 50% or more on life insurance by comparing quotes with policy genius. The licensed experts at policy genius work for you, not the insurance companies so you can trust them to help you navigate every step of the shopping and buying process. That kind of service has earned policy genius thousands of five star reviews across trust pilot and google getting started.
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So I wanted to make a quick point on this, which is that I totally listen. You don't have to argue to me about the lack of cohesion and the moral decline of the United States. Right? I think that as a nation, one of the symptoms that we are so eager to get out of Afghanistan. I think that is a symptom of the fact that we are a nation that is ready to climb into a warm bath, get fat and slit our wrists. I think that is I think that is where we are as a country. I think that's why joe biden is president right now? Because he's effectively a senile president too, presiding over a nation in a, in a tragic state of decay. I think that that that that seems like what it is. Unless there's some sort of dramatic resurgence with that said, I think what happened in american foreign policy is pretty obvious. We had a mission when the soviet union was around because we recognize there were existential threats to the United States in the form of the soviet union. Then the soviet union fell and we figured we have no idea what the hell we're doing right.
Are we doing this for capitalism? Are we doing this for liberalism? Are we doing this for nothing? Should we should we do Pat Buchanan retrenchment? Should we instead try and spread the message of the I. M. F. Like, what exactly are we doing here? We failed to recognize is that once again nature and foreign policy abhor a vacuum. And the notion that the United States was forever and always that we'd reached the Francis fukuyama's end of history, which of course is slightly misinterpreted that we had reached that end of history where the United States was destined to be the everlasting Hegeman created this sense of. So what do we do with all this stuff. What do we do with all this power.
And what that failed to recognize is that there are always powers on the move and that's what you're seeing in Afghanistan right now. The fact is that when we leave it is not as though everything just goes back to a tribal state of warfare with no externalities. By the way, the taliban was in charge for a grand total of five years in Afghanistan, everybody acts like the Taliban was in charge since forever. They're in a state of constant civil war with serious externalities, particularly the Soviets and for surrounding Republics for quite a long time. And the United States was was deeply involved in Afghanistan all the way back in the fifties. Right, Eisenhower actually flew into Kabul airport in 1959. So the, so the United States has always been involved all over the world. The question is always one of costs and benefits, which I keep coming back to this because I think that's a hard headed way of viewing foreign policy. And so I ask again, I don't see the benefit in pulling out other than the fulfillment of this muddle headed idea that we have somehow sinned in being in Afghanistan or it's a continuing since remain in Afghanistan at extraordinarily low cost to keep a lid on what was going on there, especially in the face of chinese aggression. The, the notion in american foreign policy continue. We were able to keep an empire effectively during the Cold war because we were doing so as an anti communist empire, not because we were doing so as an american empire, but because we were able to do all this stuff saying we are opposing the Soviets, right? The reality is, nature's gonna force us back into that.
You can say we're out of Afghanistan, not for long, we were
out of Iraq and then we're back to what you just said. What you just said is far more in keeping with my tragic view of these things than anything else that anybody is talking about. But in the interim, during this end of history phase, we did fall apart and Knowles is right about this. It is very hard to project power without uh it's
hard to project the kind of power that is american power without an american set of values and we are no longer have an american set of values. And I think listen, it's a tragic, is a truly tragic thing that it is china that is about to force us back into the great game. But enforcing us back into the great game, it will help us redefine who we are because it's not true that everything we did against the Soviets was simply against the Soviets. We were against the Soviets because they stood for something that we didn't stand for. It was only in my horrific cursed generation that we lost the plot of what we stood for against the So I agree, I agree with everything and by the way, just 11 more thing, you know Vietnam gets a bad rap and in some ways it deserves a bad rap. But the chinese look at Vietnam and thought those people are crazy and it kept them in line for 50 years and they didn't really start to stretch out their imperial tentacles because they saw we were going to fight them on every level and they just didn't want any part of that. So I agree with what you just said and I agree with what you just said. The reason to remain in Afghanistan is America's strategic interest. I do think that we're abstracting our way out of the urgent moral question. There is a moral question about whether or not in addition to pursuing our strategic interests, we also create moral obligation along the way. I agree that you don't have a moral obligation to go into every place that something bad happens. I agree that you don't have a moral obligation to read to occupy every country that you dropped some bombs on or send special operators into.
I agree that you don't have a moral responsibility to build governments in countries, even if you do occupy them for a brief amount of time. Those are philosophical political questions. They're abstract questions. Their questions that can deeply inform our view of the world. They can deeply inform the actions that we will take in the future. The urgent question today, the moral question today is do we have an obligation to the people who for 20 years lived under? Whatever drove us there, Whatever took us there? Whatever mistakes we made along the way, Whatever things we should or shouldn't have done, whichever things we hope to do in the future or hope not to do in the future. We did do something in Afghanistan. And because of what we did for the last 20 years, we keep using the word women, the people being raped and murdered women. They're not women, they're small girls, their 13 year old girls, girls who were going to school, girls who were not wearing Burqas, Girls who were not westerners. They did not have our values, but they had something far better than the values of the generation that preceded them in Afghanistan and they had them as a direct result of actions that we ourselves took.
So while we are, while we are, I believe, betraying our strategic interest, I think we're emboldening china. I think we're emboldening Russia. I think we're going to see the fall of Pakistan to the Taliban and now the taliban will be one of the six nuclear powers on the earth. I think we're emboldening Iran. I think we're emboldening ISIS and al Qaeda, just like when we pulled our troops wrongly out of Iraq under Barack Obama And suddenly we lost half the country that we had fought and bled to win and we lost Syria and ISIS formed and Europeans started getting bombed and getting their heads chopped off and now we had to fight yet another war in Iraq and yet another war in Syria. I think we're gonna see the same thing for all the reasons. I think it's horrible for the interests of the United States of America to withdraw our troops. I also think there is a moral question about our withdrawal of our troops. But let me let me just that one moral question, which is in order to answer that moral question, you have to imagine the counterfactual that joe biden did not screw this up beyond the imagination of man. You have to be able to say that there was an orderly withdrawal. We left, we left the place intact, we left the government intact, we left the army intact, and we withdrew slowly in in an orderly manner. We got our people out, we got our allies out, all of those things you have to imagine first, Right, Because the immoral thing that's happening is happening because of this incredible act, almost mind boggling active incompetence.
And I think that's what I would say in that case, In that case, if we left Afghanistan in an orderly manner and Afghanistan still could not maintain its government and still could not maintain its system. Then I would say no, we don't actually have an obligation. I suppose what I would answer to that is we had essentially withdrawn from Afghanistan, we had a lot of different questions now you're using the lightest touch. But now you're changing the question. I mean, the question is, do we have an eternal moral obligation and no, eventually another country, unless we're an empire, eventually other countries have to be able to pull out of the Philippines. I
don't think, I don't think it's unreasonable if we had any moral obligation to the people of Afghanistan and frankly, I don't think we did Or do. But if we did, then I think 20 years is a pretty good amount of time uh, to give them to figure out how to run their own country. And, and honestly, we all agree that the way that we pulled out was terrible and incompetent and all that. But no matter how we pulled out, I just think you're the milieu are the military of Afghanistan. This, this is your job. You should be able to do this no matter how America leaves. And if they can't, then um, I think the moral failures fall on the Afghan army more so than on the,
You think that 20 you think that you think 20 years means Uh, 20 years was enough, like the longer you're there, the more you need to leave. And I think what I'm suggesting is the longer you're there, the more responsibilities you begin to incur you go, yes. If you go into a country and strip and bomb them and get out. If it's shocking on leave, if you shoot some cruise missiles into the Sudan, you have very little obligation to the Sudan or the people of the Sudan that you incur as a result, if you were there for a year until tora bora, we realized that bin laden is probably out of Afghanistan and we're gonna have to take our fight elsewhere. You've incurred more moral obligation, but certainly far, far less then. If you've been, we have been there, what have we have engaged in draw your if you withdraw your support for a tyrant like the Shah of Iran and another tyrant. Uh an Islamist tyrant comes in and takes over like the Ayatollah Khomeini essentially. Do you have an obligation there? Do you think like, oh gee we should have kept supporting the shaw.
Certainly, certainly, certainly 100% we should have kept supporting yes, it's not for political reasons, for political reasons, but not for more. But I think that even when it comes to foreign policy, morality is a currency, right? I mean, that that is that is just a reality of the situation, right? That's why the United States ought to win the Cold War for example, morality is a currency and one of the ways that morality is used as a currency is via incentivizing people to join your fight, meaning that I actually, I actually let me explain. So in so in Afghanistan, it is not merely that we went there and out of the kindness of our heart, we were like, here's some liberalism and we're here to save you. And we went in there with a particular purpose as we all discuss the political leadership botched the explanation of that purpose. All that's true. We then made a bunch of promises to all the people who work with us, hundreds of thousands of people who work with us. That if you work with us, you will have these things. Your women will be able to go to school, your women will be able to walk out in the street and women helped us. Many women helped us, right? You will be able to live a different life and they lived that life.
And many of them kept those obligations. And so now the question becomes, if you make a promise and then you withdraw the promise, is that a problem? And I think the answer is yes. And then the question becomes okay. So how do we deal with that promise? So, for example, if we were talking right now, because these are now the alternatives now we're to the real world alternatives, right? The alternate alternative number one, we pull out of the country, we made promises to literally hundreds of thousands of people that were joe biden says this all the time that we were going to help them get out. If not to the United States, then someplace else, right? That if we leave. And if this thing collapse, we're gonna get out and by the way we did the same with the Vietnamese boat people in the or we should have in the aftermath. Many of those people are unbelievably good american citizens. We do this for people who are trying to escape cuba from a bad life to a good life.
You know the if so if the alternatives are figure out where 250,000 people who actively work with the United States are going to live or keep a baseline truth presence there and nobody has to leave. Which one of those is better now again, I think that you can the in the end everything in foreign policy, just like in politics generally comes down to transactional cost, it comes down to cost and benefit. When you're making a calculation is the promises that you made to people on a moral level. Do you bear responded we bear any responsibility for those people. So for example forget about keeping the troops there. Do you bear any responsibility to the people? We made promises to that we were going to evacuate them to help them evacuate or should we just said you ought Screw It. We helped you for 20 years, but you're on your own. If the Taliban slaughter, we
all agree that we have responsibilities to the people we promised to evacuate if our government evacuated a lot of them. Right. Right, Right,
okay. So so we so we so we agree on that. So then the question is just whether with regard to the keeping of the skeleton for us, whether that would have been better or is it better to try and airlift out hundreds of thousands of people, hundreds more thousands by the way are still gonna get left and slaughtered. And do we own a moral obligation to not just the girls who are about to get raped, but to their fathers who worked with us and their parents who worked with us. And I think the answer is yes. When you occur a mutual obligation in order to get a thing done, you owe something. Do you think that's an
everlasting moral obligation is I guess is the question
I mean I think that it is a moral obligation that if you promise someone, we didn't promise the people who fought with us that Here's the deal. You fight with us today and 20 years were out. Right. And if the Taliban take over, That's it. We'll fight with you today in 20 years. We're gon that's not that's not how you promised in foreign policy. No one promises that way in foreign policy because then nobody does it. So we promised we'd be there forever. No, we promised that they were going to have a particular kind of life. This is what happens which
would entail us to be there
forever. Not or or we fly not necessarily or we fly them over here Or or maybe there's the possibility that if we've withdrawn more orderly fashion and don't completely collapsed their air force from within, did the
Afghan government and military have any obligation of its own to its own citizens? Of
Course, they had an obligation of the tone of the uh, and and by the way, they undertook that obligation to the tune of 50,000 dead over the course of the last six years
and 67,000 beds in the 20 years with me. And that's
and that's that's an awful lot of human beings. That is an awful lot. But that's also that's more american troops than we've lost in all wars combined since Vietnam. But that's the
way the ratio should be at least. I mean, they're they're defending their own country. They take the lion's share of the casualties. So I agree with the idea that we're supposed to, you know, admire the Afghan military for being the ones to take the brunt of the casualties. Of course it's your country. Who else is going to do
with my pleasure. But my question is, I just, I suppose I just don't understand the tremendous urgency that was felt by so many people, we must get this tiny bare bones force out of Afghanistan forthwith. And even if the consequences are world historical and they are okay when you turn over a country of 38 million people to the Taliban welcome in all these terrorist groups, give china an open running field, Give Russia an open running field. And then yes, create the moral hazard of this does make a difference in the world when our allies look at us and they and We have and yes, this goes back to the political leadership point. Maybe we should never talk in moral terms, but I do happen to think it was kind of a good thing that we stopped mass rape in Afghanistan. So if George W. Bush said in a couple of speeches, we stopped terrorism and by the way, we also stop the mass rape of 12 year old girls in Afghanistan. I don't think that's the end of the world. But if people look the
other way on the rape of boys though, I mean that's
the Afghan army. I mean, so he should have said that too and he should have moved on that. Okay. Like we can all agree. I'm not in favor of the rape of boys. I think we're all on the same page on this one.
But there is the painting of the Afghan allies and I'm very grateful for the allies who helped us. But there's the painting of them is these pure pure as the driven snow, charitable people who didn't commit. But what what matt is saying is They committed some of the same atrocities that we're all focusing on the South Koreans did to during that 42 years that we occupied south
Korea to the south Vietnamese and so did pinochet and so like that's the nature of foreign policy. The question is, is it more moral? What was the United States presidents did we make Afghanistan and the period of our dominance better than it had been under the Taliban?
Sure. But if we're making, if we're now having the moral discussion and I think it's important to remember that when we went in there, the people who helped us in Afghanistan, I don't think they did so on the suggestion that we were going to stay there forever and claim it as an imperial territory. That was not the argument we made when we went in and
who claimed it as an imperial terrible.
I think we were saying now we should have stayed there for many, many more years, which isn't an imperial territory. I think it does. But Germany, you guys, you guys are both both of you wrong about
would you say china tried to build, what are some other country tried to build one military base in our country? We would say you're trying to claim us as you're own right And I just
just to get back to this more.
But it isn't the same thing. If we do that another country.
But I do have a point. You know, Ben brought up transaction in foreign policy is decided by transaction and I just think that it's worth remembering. I'm grateful for the support of our afghan allies. They were doing so because they had an interest. And I don't I actually don't believe that they thought the United States was going to stay there forever. I don't think we said we were gonna stay there forever. I think they thought we were the best. I think when you look at America's victories in the last century, Any place where we fought and won, we still have troops before 1975 anywhere. I'm sorry. And that. No, but I mean I just haven't until now
anyplace that we fought in one, we still have troops. Every place that we fought and suffered humiliating defeat. We don't still, I can if I can just inject one more time I morbidly tragic move life here. One thing we should also keep in mind that the thing that we're actually noticing is that democracy is a very bad system for running an empire. And the reason it's a bad system for running an empire is because one day you've got George w bush running the place and the next day you've got joe biden or Obama running the place don't agree and they pull out our troops and they put our troops back in and our promises are broken and our promises are broken for democratic reasons because we voted for somebody who's gonna break the promise of the last guy. We voted for that. This is one of the reasons that as great as free nations become strong and free nations become strong, they become empires and they stop being free nations and this is one of the prices I believe we're gonna have to pay. There's a reason the roman republic fell. There's a reason this republic will fall and I think that we have to understand that what you guys are talking about keeping your promises is going to have it be a drain on the democratic
process. I'm also
foreign policy has been. I mean, I just again, I'm gonna point out that every president since since Barack Obama pledged to get the troops out and nobody did it because it turns out that foreign policy is not democratic process we voted on at the moment. It's it's not what it is. You know, has not been since World War two. Joe biden did not get out because the people of the United States were rapidly demanding that joe biden get out. If you look at the list of american priorities getting out of Afghanistan along. Somebody who's going to get us out. Okay. But okay now you're actually justifying the idea that they voted for somebody who pledged that was going to universal health care. Like that doesn't work. That's not right now, in fact that but it's true. It's not I'm not saying it's right.
I'm saying George Bush was right in 2000 and five when he said, you voted for a guy who's going to privatize Social Security except that's not the way this works okay. Just because you vote for a president of the United States because the president wins does not mean that he has a referendum on every single issue down the line or that his calculations already about the reality of it. I'm not
arguing the morality. I'm talking about the reality of it. And this is one of the reasons why why great
nations lose their elections have consequences. This is true. Of course it is also true that the american people have a poor understanding of foreign policy because our leadership class is garbage when it comes to this stuff. And it has been since the Cold War and during the Cold War we had a
uh America. America's leaders have been pistes pour on foreign policy way before the Cold. Yeah. And
everything also. But I am curious what you guys say about this issue on the moral question of our country right now. When we talk about exerting our influence and we think about what that influence actually is now. I think about one of the most powerful videos that I've seen recently was it was a small group but still it was in Jamaica. And I don't know if everyone in this video, but our embassy in Jamaica was flying a pride flag And the Jamaican people got together and protested it and said we don't this, we don't want that here. That's that's your values. It's not ours, we don't want it here. And I look at that and I and I side against our embassy. I'm on their side 100%. And so uh and I don't like that. I mean when someone's protesting our embassy and I have to be on the side of the protest. It's not a good place to be.
It's not a good place to be. It's it's also it's also tragic and sad that I have to say that someone flag. Right? So so what what about that problem as well? I'm just curious what you guys
think that I don't agree with any of that. I do think that it is better for that. I think that if the package deal and I wish they weren't a package deal, I wish that we weren't flying the pride flag. I think it's absurd to fly anything about the american flag period at the United States Embassy. But the american flag is now more controversial in the United States than the Pride Progress
flag. Much more so significantly more because the Pride Progress flag is, in my view, my humble view the imperial flag right? It's universal and we put it in our embassies all over
the world. So the but putting aside the the so then the question is okay, so here's the package deal. I disagree with flying the pride progress flag in Kabul, I definitely agree with preventing the mass rape of 18 million women. So if I have to balance those out that's not that tough of balance. Like I like America may suck in a lot of ways, but we don't suck in that big giant way. And so I'm I have I have generalized moral objections to the conflation of America again. And you see this a lot actually with with the kind of left wing approach to the United States, we can't criticize this country over here because look at all the problems we're having over here and I do see it mirrored sometimes on the right, which is look at all the bad stuff we're pushing over here, You know, gender ideology and and critical race theory. And that makes it inappropriate for us to quote unquote, spread our values anywhere else. And all I would say is yes, those values should not be spread even at home. But it's a fallacy to say that because there are people in the United States spreading that at home. It is therefore bad for other countries for X to export the parts where we killed the guys where the rapist,
I'm the pride flag here is just sort of symbolic and in a lot of ways. But it represents the overall problem. Obviously if you're gonna weigh the rape of thousands of girls against the pride flag hanging on an embassy, the rape of thousands girls is obviously a lot worse clearly. But what we are exporting in general and the pride flag is only one small symbol of it is just I think utter total moral confusion. And I do think that people in Jamaica and across the world see that and they're and what they're saying is we don't want any part of that. We don't want that. Here you guys are. This is what we're falling
apart more. Well, the leader of the leader of friends abroad on a broad scale. I mean, we were flying the Pride Progress flag in 2005 and the Taliban didn't seem to waver in their determination to overthrow the
Michael. Worry about the, you know Macron, the leader of France came out. This was about a month or so ago and he addressed woke ideology, political correctness, whatever you wanna call it. He said this is bad stuff. We don't have that in France. This is France. This is one of the most liberal nations because we don't have that here. It is a poison. We're going to prevent it from coming into our schools and our institutions. And I think that's kind of what matt is getting at here is yes, we're we historically have exported wonderful things and ideas and values around the world that that is changing. That is, that has changed. And even Western enlightened wonderful leaders are recognizing that I think that that causes some of the lack of cohesion.
It has absolutely changed our values today in many ways are worse. Some of our values are a lot better though. And I think one of the mistakes that we make on the right because we're definition aly reactionary. That's what the right is. Is that we, because we point at all the bad things that are beginning to happen. We wind up and even donald trump did this. You know, when he basically said, we do bad things to the Russians do bad things, We do bad things. That's a horrible line because it is, it is 90% true and 100% wrong, right? Yes, we do. It's of course it's true that we do bad things. There is no comparison. America is like, we still live in a great time.
We still have fundamentally compared to most people in most places at most times, a great way of life, a great value system, a better value system in some ways than we've ever had. A worse value system in some very important ways and a worsening value system in some very particular ways that we need to fight. But when you see like Nicki fuentes little Nicky fuentes uh, saying on the only social channels he's still welcome on with, of course he should not have been banned. Well this actually, I still also like to rub a little salt, but he said, you know, uh, tell Afghanistan is falling to a regime that uh, makes women cover their faces and hey, some little clever little list of I made you think because really America is just as bad and you go, no, America isn't just as bad. The fact that America has gay marriage does not make it as bad as the talent. But I suppose the fact that America has transgenderism confusion, which is a horrible moral sin that needs to be combated doesn't make us as bad as Afghanistan. Honestly, even the fact that America has abortion, which I think is the grave sin far worse than gay rights, far worse than even the trans ideology a blight that will, if God permits the earth to continue a blight that future generations will look back on. Not the way we look at slavery, the way we would look at slavery if slavery involved murdering every, every black person. Uh, nevertheless we live in this broken and fallen world and America is still better. Our way of life is still better and our values are still better than in most of these places.
I think it's, I'll take America over the taliban any day of the week. I mean that's why I'm living here and I want to move to Afghanistan. But broadly speaking, can I say that I recommend the american way of life as it stands right now. And the answer is no, it's not something that broadly to the entire world. I want to broadcast and try to bring people into, I think the abortion thing, you know that if we really take that seriously, just home homing in on that for a second. If we really take seriously the idea that a million 800 900,000 human beings are being slaughtered every single year. Ah but you can make the argument, it's actually hard to find something worse than that. That's about 60 million human beings were killed and about 40 years since roe v wade. Yeah. So, so do we believe that or not, we actually take that seriously as a real death toll or not. And if we do then uh, were in pretty bad shape against almost
anything actually, well not against almost anybody because abortion is legal in many other Western, in almost every other Western nation. Because for most of our lives abortion was mandatory in our only true rival superpower. So when you're still talking globally about the values that are being imported or exported around the world, then yeah, America is still better than china even with those grievous sins because china has all not all of the exact same. They have abortion, certainly the same grievous sins and more more additional agreement. That that's that's it's okay argument, but it's not that great an argument. I think what matt's saying is does have a lot of weight. There is also really, really wait, no, wait, wait, wait a minute. I think this idea that that we are slaughtering this many baby was like 3000 day. Uh, you know, I think this should weigh on us a lot more heavily than it does. One of the great triumphs of the left is because we can't see the babies who were being killed. They've convinced us that they have no humanity. And if we could see them what was happening, it would be on a parallel with raping the the young women of Afghanistan
if we're going to Afghanistan and then immediately forcing abortion on all the women there, I think that that would be a far graver. Oh yeah, no, I'm not like I think that the big question in politics that people generally failed to ask is compared to whom or comparison right? I agree. And so whenever this is like
a great country, if you survive
birth, uh listen, you don't have to preach to me about portion. But the but when it comes to you know, the question of whether the United States has the right and or obligation to push our values when we are so confused and discombobulated and screwed up at home. I think the answer is compared to what? Because I think in certain circumstances the answer would probably be no right. I mean we look at like if if you were saying that we need to pursue cultural imperialism with regard to Western european country that happens to be stricter on abortion. Say Ireland four years ago, Not not right or France like not really. Like I don't I don't see a need for us to be culturally imperialist on that. I don't see our need to be culturally imperialist with regard to wokeness. And so I think it's almost a non sequitur to say something like, you know, the problems that we have at home are the problems that we are exporting abroad when in large measure. That is not true. The problems that we are having at home are problems that are that we're screwing ourselves up with. It was common a symptom of our of our failure to have any sort of heart for the fight for our own values that we have no values.
So what I would say is that our withdrawal from these places are our attempt to go isolationist is a symptom of our interior weakness, not a reconsolidation. It's it's it's almost as though you hear a lot of people on the right make the argument. You're spending all this money over here, let's bring that money home and they'll spend it on the border. And it's like, well, yes, but that's not where any of that money is going, joe biden is not going to take $1 of that or one soldier there and put that person on the board. It's not gonna happen. So you're just doing a non sequitur. Now, you're just saying I would like more security on the border. And also I don't want troops in Afghanistan and that's not the same thing. You're gonna have to show the connection between those two things I can say it once. I hate wokeness. I think all of the stuff left is pushing a serious garbage. And also I don't understand how that is of any comfort at all to anybody who is still trapped behind enemy lines.
it is true. It is true that within living memory at least my living memory, uh it wasn't always so that this was a great country as compared to what you know, that's that's that's a new phenomenon.
I don't think that's true. I mean, I think that, you know, because I think that I mean, and this is where you're gonna get the argument. I mean, pick a period Michael, which which period we're talking about. I
think the period after World War Two, uh this country actually entered a period of segregation. There were black and wait a minute, wait a minute. I didn't say I didn't say that. It was perfect. I didn't say
that. But then it is compared to what the soviet union made this exact
argument. I know they didn't know that was that was what about ISm. But abortion is different. And and and also to um at different points, you know, a lot, a lot of the way that we spread our imperial reach is through non governmental channels. Ngos literally right. And we actually do spread abortion through Ngos and this is something we've got a lot of pushback from africa. So one of the values were spreading. I'm sorry to report is abortion. And I think, you know, jeremy, will you bring up this point by this guy fuentes, who, you know, but it's not just him, right? It's other people too who will make this argument say, are we so much better than the Taliban? And the reason that some people can make that argument with more credibility is because they have, as we joked, been kicked off of social media, they have been taken out of financial institutions. They've been put on the no fly list without being accused of crimes.
We've got some problems. So I'm, but I'm just, I guess my point again is descriptive, which is, I understand why some people would make even that semi joke in comparison when perhaps we would not. I think that it's disingenuous to to have this particular group of people devolved into some sort of tacit accusations that maybe we're not pure enough on the abortion issue. Uh, no, no, no, nobody's saying that that's not that's not true. The abortion is like unto slavery in two ways and wholly different than slavery in most ways. It's like under slavery in two ways. one that it is culturally in broad swaths of the culture considered moral, even though it is wholly unrighteous and it is likened to abortion in that it is somewhat ubiquitous slavery was ubiquitous in all of the world, abortion is ubiquitous in all developed nations really on earth. And that does, that does not get out of jail free card for us where abortion is concerned. But it is to talk about the scope of the problem of abortion that abortion does not make America unique in America. America is a grievous evil, abortion is a grievous evil and we're worse not at the most. It's not a unique.
It also that also what you're talking about also, I think could potentially mitigate to a certain extent the personal moral culpability of of of some individuals who choose abortion because they, because they're in this environment where they're told by everybody that's okay. But in terms of, of of the point that I was making anyway, it's not about any individual here. It's actually all of us that this, uh, I had this thought just the other day when I was, I was, we were going out to eat or something and and we passed by a planned parenthood and which we all do all the time. We passed by planned parenthood and I didn't even think much of it. I just went to eat to eat and and only later did I stop and reflect, I'm like, I just passed by a building where they were killing babies and it didn't even registered fully on me. Um, as as pro life as as I am and as we all are. So this is, this is a like drew pointed out, this is a success the left has had. This is something unique about abortion that we don't see the victims. And so that that prevents us all from fully confronting it. I think that if these were and I'm sure we all I know we all agree that if these were
two year old
Children who are being and we could see them being carted in by their parents to have their brain sucked out of their head, I would have been able to go eat, I mean I would have had to charge in there and stop it and and we don't none of us really have that
abortion is the Lord's abortion is the lords of the ring sin. It's the sin that God can't see, Right. It's the if you had the ring of power and you can turn yourself invisible. 100% of all men would go into the women's locker, right? Like your very first thought to be like, Yep, just instantly because God couldn't see you because and when I say God, I really mean man because God is part of God sees all, but but we reduce God down to us. We think so, abortion is what it is in particular because people don't see not only they don't see the crime, they don't see the criminal. Uh, and in that way, I mean I will confess in in various moments in my life always thinking that abortion was a grievous crime I've confront, I've been confronted with the part of myself, They could have snuck around and done it because I know what I would do if I I know what I could do if I could get away with it. Is that that Matthews that passage of jesus in the book of Matthew about adultery, if you lust after you're an adult or if you have hate, you're a murderer, not your kind of like them or you're on the path to being one. You are one because you you've revealed what you actually would be if no one was watching abortion just happens to be the one that actually no one is watching. We've actually run out of time. But rather than ending the show, I'm going to prolong the suffering because we promised that we would take some questions from our daily wire subscribers, they make it possible for us to conduct this crap show. Uh we we have a I would argue that the longer the show goes, the more moral obligation we incurred to our subscribers.
Now, I even more strongly disagree exactly. We should just withdraw the first question for the group. How will the reduction in american might and reputation have ramifications on other world events namely china moving on Taiwan and Russia flexing its muscles in eastern europe. That's the question. Ben,
I mean I think it's gonna have dramatic ramifications. I think everybody who follows foreign policy can see that people are talking openly in china about moving on Taiwan frankly, I think they'd be fools not to move on Taiwan before joe biden is out of office because get while the getting is good. I think you're gonna start, they may try to pursue the Hong kong model of trying to pressure the government. They're into moving more pro china because they feel like they're not gonna get american support. So just basically softly take them over the way that they did Hong kong before they marched in the troops. But china is on the march. They're taking advantage. Russia is on the march. They're taking advantage. We're not gonna have any basis now, not only in Afghanistan but also in Pakistan. We have no ability when joe biden talks about how we're gonna have over the horizon capacity. We absolutely will not in order to do that.
You have to have people on the ground to actually know where to spot the actual bad guys that you can actually put a laser on it so that our guys can hit it. So it's it's a disaster area in a wide array of foreign policy issues is the really short answer. And uh again I think our enemies are looking at this and they are just
drooling to Drew's point. America is about to have to actually face the question of what is our role in the world? Do you think biden is going to be impeached or is going to be forced to step down And is that even a good thing because Kamala is just as bad and also should be impeached Camilla too because she obviously had a part of this plan. Also, in fact, she, right before it all went to crap, she made a major point of saying that she was very,
how confident you have to be. We're like, okay, this thing is going to be just, but I need to be on that band.
Well, don't forget that that first speech, she wasn't there. I think she had to have her arm twisted a little. But to this point I think is just, I'll defer to the lawyer in the room. But as uh as a simple matter of impeachment mala administration is not a basis for impeachment, high crimes and misdemeanors is a basis. There's
also nobody who's gonna impeach him.
Exactly. But I think the question of whether he will have to step down as unanswerable because he is such a uh we just don't know how bad off he is and it's some, it's possible at some point. They won't
be able to hide it. He looks the way he looked tonight. I can't imagine running for reelection but he won't, I can't let Kamala Harris. I think he, I
think he runs for reelection. You
strap him. I don't think I did.
You just say so the yahoo headline just came out about his poll numbers and they said this is really hurting biden Harris Harris is only leading trump by 2%. That was the headline. Waiting she running? I didn't I didn't know that was part of the past. I just I'm kind of with then I think that they will it will be weekend at Bernie's. They are terrified. I mean, Kamla couldn't win a primary. She certainly isn't gonna win. And you know, the idea that both the president and the vice president would not seek a second term against Republican? I don't know if we've ever seen that. I think that's gonna happen. I we don't know the future, but I think that's gonna happen and I think it's very hard to know, it really is impossible to know what's going to happen with biden because he may just be, it may just be impossible to problem.
Do you believe the biden administration will pay a ransom for remaining americans who are left in Afghanistan before using military force
for sure one. But yeah, they're gonna be pallets of cash that are shipped over there that we're never going to see there already are probably 100% by the way, that actually is an impeachable offense. You're not right. I mean that actually is. So if we start shipping money over there without any sort of congressional approval to a terrorist group. That actually isn't who's going to do it right now. But I mean just to the legal question by the way to the legal question. The real answer is it doesn't matter because impeachment is a political right? So it doesn't really matter. But right,
What are the chances that China decides it's time to go after Taiwan? I mean we were basically 10000%. And if I if I were China I'd certainly do in the next three years because we don't know what's coming.
By the way, who exactly is going to oppose them to speak of like the west and its restrictions on freedom. It makes more sense to have that conversation less in the in the guise of the taliban than it does with regard to china considering chinese social credit system, considering how Australia is currently locking and citizens down like, I mean like what did you see the video from from nine news? And it was like, I was just waiting for the and then there was the guy who's coming down the elevator and then anchors like his name is and it's like I'm waiting for them to release the hound on montage. I agree you're the only person who got the reference, but I was like the end of Fahrenheit 4 51 he's running for the river and you've got the hound following him because he might have Covid he's asymptomatic, it's unbelievable.
It is the fall of the West right now And it is the chinese moment, I mean, you wrote your book the authoritarian moment. And really what you mean In some ways is that this is the Chinese moment. There have been for the last 25 years, there have been two models that were sort of dominant. There's the Western model, basically the American model now in Europe, it's further left and it has more parliamentary system and it has, you know, bigger social spiritual, it's essentially the Postwar American order. And what we're seeing to some degree, even domestically, which is very concerning is that in some ways both left and right are looking at china now and saying, you know, the system of, of strong authoritarian regimes with liberal economics maybe scalable in a way, uh, this this this, this happened before World War Two to you know, there are plenty of people in America who are going like Hitler isn't
such a bad,
you gotta, you gotta point uh, do you believe that this is a combination of idiocy, incompetence, naivety or intentional in other words, are they trying to inflame the american populace and thereby increased military operations overseas? And I think it's I think it's a I really, I've heard the the conspiracy, if you want to call it that the conspiracy theory that this is a purposeful attempt to debilitate us and demoralize us. I just don't think that that's smart to
be honest with you, you moron.
And he always he always was even before I put my tinfoil hat on though, if I could stand up for the question to Ben's point, the people do not control foreign policy or at least not in in many years, many decades. And we know that the bureaucracy in the foreign policy establishment did not want to pull out of Afghanistan and we know that joe biden is not running the show. And so there is the question I don't want to ascribe to malice that, which is explained by stupidity and in confidence. And there was a lot of that. We left a lot of stuff behind at Bagram. We left a lot of stuff behind in the country, 75,000 vehicles over 200 aircraft, 600,000 firearms were
million rounds of ammo.
And I mean we're missing an army's worth of stuff that that is either historic incompetence or or there were competing and I
think we're missing. We're missing an option though, which is indifference. I think, I think part of it, the problem is the people that run our country don't really care that much about americans or or or our country at all. So I think there's also
joe biden has always been committed to his peculiarly stupid idea of the moment. Right? I mean, it's like what if we just took this country and we sliced it in three? You're like, well, there's no natural resources, one third of the country and he's like, I don't care man. Come on man and is And is that here too right. Like did you did his press conference today where he's like all my generals agreed on this. He kept saying this over and over right
now. Not on my general, all the higher ups in the military, right? Which actually extends even beyond like one person has to say. I mean I didn't,
by the way, it's not true. We have many, many stories of all his guys going, you can't pull out this way. And he's like we're doing it. And then he's like but they also agreed that we should not defend Bagram is like, oh you mean once you said we could have two troops and you can put the two troops in one place. They said let's do Kabul instead of bagram, wow. Big agreement there. But it's I
do think that we we can talk about it on the show because we got to go home. That's ridiculous. But but I do think that there is a case to be made that our intelligence services are infiltrated by our enemies. Yes, there was a case. Of course. Of course. Yeah. And you know the thing we talk about the big things, I'm not committing suicide if I die. That's Rotem Acacia letter. You did just give up the whole plot, biden is not going to run complex, not gonna Hillary is going to be president. We talk about the big things Humvees, you know, armored vehicles, uh airplanes and helicopters. It's the 16,000 pairs of night vision goggles that I'm the most worried about.
Our special operators have ruled Afghanistan truly for the last 20 years that they're, the they're the most lethal fighting men that have ever existed in all of human history. And their superpower is that they can see in the dark, That's their superpower. And we just gave the enemy the superpower. The good news is where are they going to buy batteries? That's all the time we have for tonight. We want to especially thank our Daily Wire dot com subscribers for being patient with us tonight. It took us a minute to get to your questions, but we're grateful that you were with us. Uh, thank you all for tuning in as always. Happy to have you join us. We would love for you to become a subscriber. Go over the daily wire dot com uh slash subscribe Get a reader's past trial. You can do it for just $4 to get four weeks, $4, $3, $4 a month.
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