Web3 Marketplace AQUA Caters to Gamers - Interview with cofounder - Transcripts
Welcome to the Crypto Gamer podcast presented by Iskra. The premier destination for Web three gaming, I'm your slightly knowledgeable host Nate, I am not a financial advisor, just a gamer speculating and this episode we're going to be talking about the new Web three marketplace aqua, they are specializing in Blockchain gaming empties with a real focus on bringing the top games to their marketplace and creating a sense of community and enabling players to be better gamers. They'd actually already partnered with some of the top Blockchain games out there, like Gods Unchained and gilded Guardians, they have a really great UI and what's really cool is how they actually want to help gamers get better. So for example, Gods Unchained is a tradable card game where you build a deck of cards that synergize well together so that you can beat your opponent. So what aqua is going to do to sort of enhance the marketplace experience is they're going to include stats like win percentage when using certain cards and showing which cards work well together, where some of the best deck combinations and some of the best synergies that are going on. It's really a great way for them to build their own community, sort of engage with the fan base a little bit more and also really give fans of different games, another avenue to enhance their gameplay and fun. So with that I'm really excited to have on a quiz co founder so that we can talk about all the cool things that they're doing in the Web three space, but before we get into that, a word from our podcast partner is grow now, Israel believes the future of gaming is on the Blockchain and they offer the premier destination for players and developers to explore the thrill and opportunity of Web three gaming alongside a vibrant community. So right now actually you can explore a platform using Blockchain, built for next gen, web three games in a community system that rewards both players and developers based on their participation. You can sign up now at Pioneer dot dot World and join their discord group to start exploring the future of gaming links are in the show notes as well. Plus if you join their discord using our link, you'll be in line for some special rewards. Alright, back to Aqua and our interview, so I want to welcome Sean Ryan to this show today, who is the co founder of Aqua. Thanks for joining me.
Thanks, I'm really excited to be here.
Yes, me too. You guys have had some, some awesome news recently with some of your partnership, so I'm really excited to dive into everything you guys have going on
so before we sort of dive into Aqua and all of your big news, I'd love to hear a little bit about your in the industry and what made you want to sort of create projects on the Blockchain.
Sure, I'll try and keep it short because it's been a relatively long career, I was a gamer way back to the Atari 2600 and used to play asteroids in an arcade across the street from school. So that gives you an idea of age. But gamer for many, many years by apple to with wizardry all the way through. And when I went to business school, after a few years in finance and retail, I really wanted to be in tech and I really wanted to be in gaming and this was just one dial up modems were switching to broadband, so this would be in 1996. Uh and there were three online gaming companies at the time and I ended up being fortunate enough to work for one of them at Sega Soft, which was, which was a spin out of Sega, the japanese game division when we used to have the Dreamcast in those days and Heat dot net was one of the first online game services. So for all the talk about how you need massive broadband streaming to do online gaming, we did online gaming on dial up modems, but it was not pretty, let me be clear. So, so command and conquer was kind of my seminal RTs is just really what I spent my second year of business school playing it in the land inside the business school. To the consternation of all my classmates who were doing real work and I was playing command and Conquer.
then ended up doing a variety of other things, both in gaming at Sega and then went into music for a long time and a company called Rhapsody and then came back around on some other initiatives, including one which we built a gaming and Metaverse company, what we used to call virtual world company 17 years ago with my Cto john who's now at Aqua Uh and then ended up in Facebook about 11 years ago after a couple of different things as starting the gaming business, the partnership side, the business side of the early free to play days in early January 2011. So I would be seeing uh play Tikka, you know, all those types of companies that really started on the Facebook platform and then moved to the mobile where they became even more successful,
awesome. Yeah, that's great. I really, I get what you're saying About dealing with playing games on modems because I mean my first experience was probably the original starcraft and some counter strike back in the late 90s. So the struggle was
real when so when my friend Neil was at a marketing for Blizzard and so my wife knew that once a year or so there'd be a large box arrived from Blizzard, which would be a Warcraft Starcraft etcetera and I would disappear for two weeks somewhere and then to play all the way through some of my favorite gifts.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um so with that I'd love to dive into a little bit of Aqua, the sort of the inception of the project and what made you guys want to sort of build this marketplace on this platform.
Sure. It's a, it's a little bit of the story. So I left facebook about a year ago or Meadow now and looked around what else to do. And my CTO and I john and I were looking at a variety of startups in the Web three space. We really believe Web three and the idea of digital asset ownership is something gamers have wanted for a long time. And while we were looking at different concepts, uh, my former manager had someone reach out to me and these are the founders of digital and these are three guys who are just incredible Web three investors and they, they had been doing a lot of investing in the space around mostly around art N F T s. And one of them, one of the founders is a huge Gods, Unchained Player, one of the CCGS that's been around for a while and he is the number one holder of N. F. T. S in that game, roughly 320,000. And he was getting incredibly frustrated with the marketplace situation that you was only about one of these. And Twosies only only showed price, it was a scattershot of a bunch of things.
So they started to build their own marketplace and that became aqua. And then as it moved along to an alpha phase, they decided to turn into an actual business. And they recruited myself and my C T O john to come turn it into a business and they went up to become board members. So we started the business really turning it into a business a few months ago with john and I joining and our head of marketing L. A. And then we raised $10 million through digital and now we're off to the races, hiring about an employee employee a week and we're certainly crank up and supporting more games, more chains, better features, more content. So it's an exciting time. So it was really what you'd call an incubated venture in that it came with an initial prototype slash alpha and money in the bank. And then we have come in to accelerate it,
awesome. Yeah, absolutely. And I love the UI that you guys have, like you said, it's a lot more intuitive than some of the other things that you're seeing sort of out in the space or games that sort of have their own marketplace. Um, and I really am liking some of the projects that you guys have partnered with because they're more on the forefront of the web, three gaming platform, not a lot of these clicker games. So I wanted to check with you on what are some of the things that you guys look for when you're adding projects onto the marketplace and what are some of the things that are like this is something we have to move on.
Yeah, it's a great question. We've been focused on quality. So we've been featured tier called Aqua Prime that you'll see start to show up more obviously in the next month or so where we really go deep on a few games, probably a game a month for right now. So right now it's God's Unchained were gilded guardians coming and we're gonna find two more games for this fall. So one once a month we go really deep on a game, meaning it's not just about price. The last couple of years have been focused on price and that's frankly a very small Audience to give you an idea of scale roughly three million unique active wallets, which is how we look at this space. We're active in gaming last month in gaming globally outside of Blockchain, there are three billion monthly active users. So it's a 1000 x difference. So this is still early and the reason is it's early is the games haven't been good enough. They haven't been fun enough. The wallets are still too hard to use, but it's all coming. So when we look at games, we look at first, is the team, do we think the team is solid And what we're seeing now, warren work great game developers coming out of Web two and Web three, who know how to make great games second is we look at.
Of course, the concept that we think it's gonna work. We can't pick every game perfectly, but we think is it interesting is a good investment into it And most importantly, is it fun? It's hard to tell early on with that. But what I tend to shy away from our games that look like they've taken decentralized finance or defi and rammed it into the game. So I'm not sure games need staking, I'm not sure games need decks is, I'm not sure games. There was this theory of a couple of years ago around the infinity and we're seeing the tail end of vaccine, infinity clones. Right now let's merge tennis shoes, let's merge unicorns, let's merge household pets. Let's merge And they're not necessarily fun or sustainable. The next set of games we're seeing coming later this year in 2023 look to be fun and sustainable. So we're gonna partner deeply with games to again expose, not just transactions, which is typically the marketplace does. That's all about price. What we want to expose is play data.
So that when you're in Gaza and chain for example, even now you click on one of the cards in aqua, you can take a look and see how is that card used. How often what's the winning percentage because we really believe that gaming is about winning, about competing about being entertained. Not necessarily about how much money can you make on your assets.
Yes, absolutely. And I feel like that's something that we've really learned in the last year so many games or you know, games with quotes, um we're focused so much on token. Ah Mix what's the return after this amount of days and weeks. And I feel like I've heard this sort of reference a lot, is that Blockchain, Blockchain games last year really felt so similar to how mobile games were when they first started coming out. In other words, they were pretty terrible, but they had a lot of potential. Yeah,
I would even go started even earlier. So january 2011 when I joined facebook, the top game was Mafia Wars, which was, if you look back on, it was a spreadsheet with a graphical interface on top of it that basically encourage you to spam your friends as much as possible. And that was early facebook games and some of the games were terrible and yet then we saw three or four years later it was a multi billion dollar business with hundreds of millions of users and later all those free to play mechanics in the west moved to mobile and got better and better and better. So you're absolutely right, it doesn't bother me. It's typically how new game genres or new game business models start, but that's what makes gaming exciting is that every five for 10 years you see a shift and expansion just like Battle Royale with Fortnite and others was a play mechanic or play loop, this is a play revenue or play business model shift, which makes gaming so exciting because the next set of games coming just like you referenced in mobile and me back to desktop free to play, started off a little rough but got better and better. And that's what, that's what I love about talented game designers.
Yes, absolutely. And we've sort of learned that gameplay really is king. And if you want your game to last more than three or six months, you have to focus on something that's fun and that people are going to want to invest their time, not necessarily their resources into.
Well, what also used as a reference, even though it's a casual game is candy crush Saga. Saga has 12,000 levels. Now that's an insane number. And the question is, why do you have 12,000 levels? Clearly, clearly they're doing it for a reason. And the reason is is that there are a set of users who are quite lucrative and quite committed who make it that far. And that's why you've got a game now that's been around for 10 years and still being played in fact actually had record numbers last quarter. So when you see sustainable games like that that are really fun, but also have sustainable economic models. These games can go forever and that's what I love to see about the next generation of games that are coming in in the Blockchain space.
Yes, yes, definitely. And something that you reference um a little bit ago, is that about how gaming is sort of always on the forefront of technology. And right now gaming seems like the best way to sort of introduce people to web three and N. F. T. S. And player ownership in game. Um why do you think it is that gaming has sort of been sort of at the forefront when new technology is sort of happening?
I think it's the early adopters and gaming who are quite technically savvy and and are often starting to push the envelope on what we can do, whether it's graphic fidelity, whether it's latency for online gaming, whether it's streaming games into into people's set top boxes. So gaming has always been at the forefront because the consumers are the ones pushing it in many ways times. The publishers are the ones following, you know, what happens in these early stages is the larger publishers have established businesses and they don't jump on three to play or on or on facebook free to play or on Blockchain, they let the smaller, more dynamic companies do this who see those audiences moving. So again, when I really believe, and we believe that aqua that gaming is how hundreds of millions of people will get to Blockchain much bigger than decentralized finance or meta versus or crypto for for example, because gaming even if only 10% which I estimate will happen in the next three years, 10% of today's audience moves to gaming in the next three years. That means 300 million users by 2025. That's an utterly reasonable number. It's not even outrageous, like 10% of the entire gaming market, But that managing 300 million people moving to Blockchain and so that encourages the wallets to get easier to use the bridges on the chains to get easier. All the system just gets easier over time. There's no magic. Aha moment. There's a mixture of everything getting easier than of course some hit games.
Yes. Yes, absolutely. And that's sort of one of the things that we really harp on that's keeping a lot of web to gamers from sort of joining the Blockchain gaming spaces, all the hoops, you have to jump through connecting wallets, buying tokens. Um, they're sort of going digging through youtube, trying to find people who can walk you through it. And so as a marketplace, that's something That you guys really have to focus on a lot. So what can aqua, due to sort of make it easier for the traditional gamer to enter the Web three space
Were incredibly focused on it, especially because our team came from traditional gaming from Web to gaming. And we know that the only way this industry will succeed is to bring large numbers of Web to gamers into Web three. And so a lot of it is about education. So you'll start to see on the site in the next few weeks, you'll start to see video content, you'll start to see influence or content to start to see a bunch of different content because it's not just about the marketplace, it's about the community. We really believe that gamers want to come to a place that speaks to them. They don't want to go to a generic marketplace and we want to create a place a location where they come, even if they're not buying or selling that day, they're just coming to discover new games. We think we've got to audiences, We've got gamers who have both Web two and Web three who are looking for cool new games and game developers or publishers who want to reach those gamers. So that means we have to create more than a marketplace. We have to first create content and community around that. You'll start to see that manifest over the next few weeks. It means it has to be multi chain, so not just limited to one chain for example, because games come in all chains, We have to work on with our Wallet partners on how do we make an easier experience because it is about right now the conversion rate is hard getting people to move from never having had a wallet to this kind of somewhat scary, you know, wallet sometimes. But I think as we look at the cutting edge of gamers, the kind of what we call the next 300 million.
They're pretty savvy and we've seen this before, they're the ones who buy the really high new rigs, the ones who have the fastest phones, the ones who, you know, try new streaming service, is there gonna be more capable and the early adopters just like this is true and free to play on mobile and then later it went mainstream. But we as a marketplace have to focus on quality. We have to expose gamers to really cool new games, working in partners with partnerships of those game companies and will provide additional content around the marketplace to help educate. We can't do it ourselves, but with the industry in total, we can help move this along. It's in all of our best interest to do so.
Yes. Yes, absolutely. And it sounds like you guys are really dedicated to sort of helping out the traditional user to sort of be able to dive into this space and really the platform is built for the users, but also you guys are also helping developers out by giving them a marketplace that's easy to use and to partner with. So why is it that game developers should be looking at aqua to run their marketplaces as opposed to maybe using marketplaces on their own websites or trying to do it through their own UI
So, I think first and foremost, most games are gonna have their own marketplaces and they should, it's totally, it's totally fine to make sense during the game, especially for some of the primary menting, that makes sense. But what we found is that most games, it's hard enough to make a successful game. It's hard to make a successful marketplace as well. And do you really want to spend the time in the marketplace, you're going to spend the time in the game? And so what's great about Web three? And we consider ourselves a Web 2.5 company. And so what we love is what we learned in Web in Web two, which is three billion gamers and all the benefits of simplicity that come along with that. But then you graft on ownership and we believe ownership is key even in Web two when you ask all the polls show why do you upgrade your character in web to where you can't get any money out of it? And the answer is to win, to compete to have fun to be entertained. So we're not asking in Web three gamers to change anything, we just give them more flexibility around their assets. So when we go to developers, what we found after we came back from N. F T N Y C, which was in about six weeks ago, new york is that in developer meeting after developer meeting, they said, help us market our game, expose our game to your audience.
Now we had just started our audience is relatively small, but that demand was there. And so a lot of marketing who worked at riot before running a bunch of their marketing activities, you know, we spun up a marketing services team, which is very Web two I realized. But how how do we help expose games, especially games? We love to our audience. And as our audience grows, we become a place where games list themselves and eventually with the launchpad get featured. And so that's really what we found is that marketing Web three games is complicated. And so you have to use a multi channel approach, you can't just put ads on facebook google, it's just not as effective. Uh and so we're going to be one of those channels for game developers to be introduced to introduce themselves to our audience and we need to focus on gamer centric, Always not price centric prices. Are there a marketplace house prices, there's no way around that. But what we really want is the type of data that allows players to understand why they should buy this card. How do they, how does this help them win? How does this help them be entertained?
You know, those types of things as opposed to did the price go up?
So no, I completely agree with everything that you're saying there. Um, it's really important to sort of cater to these users and show them why games on the Blockchain are important in how your marketplace is sort of helping them out get them involved. And we've seen a few marketplaces out there from magic Eden to open sea and what is something that maybe aqua is offering that's a little bit different or better from some of these other marketplaces that we're seeing.
Yeah, it's early in this evolution. As I said, we're about three million active gamers a month right now, so I don't worry about it too much and magic even and open C are awesome companies. I think what we found just like you see with twitch for streaming and discord for messaging, Gamers want their own place then what gamers want, a place that speaks to them and that's both in the content around it as well as inside the app or website itself. So to give you an idea those marketplaces you talked talked about are great, but they focus on price And that's okay because they're they're a general purpose marketplace, we have price, but we focus on what are the attributes of the card. How can you combine this card with the cards? You already have an idea of one of the most powerful features is the idea that in God's and chain, which is a collectible card game from a mutable. You can buy a deck, you can fill out your deck and we'll even recommend the next 18 cards, for example, that you need to play better within the budget you have. So there's those types of attributes that are more about gaming that we think both in the content as well as in the features we expose that will be really powerful for gaming. I think gamers will go to many marketplaces, but I think having a gaming centric marketplace over time will be the most powerful outcome.
Yes, absolutely. And it sounds like from what you're talking about and some of the resources that you offer on the market place, that you're really working pretty closely with these individual game companies and platforms in order to get some of these stats as far as win percentage and what might work best or with gilded guardians, you know, which heroes might work best together. So you guys have a pretty tight relationship then we
do we have a good relationship with immutable. That's what we started with. We're going to be multi game and multi chain, but it is a great partner and we do work closely with the heads of studio for both those games. And the reason is it's a public Blockchain in most cases but not all the data on the Blockchain, especially the earlier generation block chains, which maybe weren't as powerful, most of the most of the data on the Blockchain is transaction data. That's good, but not enough. What we look for is play data when when data lost data. Some of that on the chain and immutable is very good about it. But in other chains, not so much. So in that case we look for private api data, not exclusive to us. You can give to anybody, but that's what we really are interested in is the play data because that's what then follows into strategies about how to win which we have content and community for and then you can buy or sell those cards or those assets in order to get there. And so that's where you know, if you look at the prototype example of a Fortnite or Call of Duty, I want to play as the sniper this time versus I want to play as the medic, I want to play. How do I win?
What do I need to do? Gamers change their strategies a lot and games encourage that. That means you change the assets you have and that's what we want. And so we work closely with the games we feature in again what we call Aqua Prime and in order to make sure we have both the clothes marketing relationship so that they send us patch notes when they have updates, they send us exclusive video content. But most importantly that we can expose what we call actionable insights to the gamer. So it's not just about price. And so we do that in close cooperation with the game developer.
Absolutely, yeah. And it seems like this sort of collaboration between projects is so important in Web three and we're all sort of working together in order to move the space. Um and while we may compete for users, it's really in our best interest to work together and help each other succeed?
I've always believed that this is an early stage market, it's not as early as when John and I built them out of there is 18 years ago and that was way too early. So we're a little scarred by that. So this time when we when we joined Aqua, we're like, Okay, how early is this? We're tracking roughly 500 games, 550 games for next year. There are differing genres, quality teams, but there's a lot of them and there's a lot of investment coming and and we as an industry have to work together. This is no longer, this is not, we're not at the stage of a very mature industry where we're competing for the last person, they were all competing to convert people. Uh And so that's where I think whether we have industry standards for a P I S, I'm always happy to work in an industry consortium like level, I think that's really important. And then I'll be at the games come next week in cologne in order to meet with a bunch of game developers to look and see if we can work together to feature them, but it's early in this business, but it's super excited.
Yes. Yes, absolutely, and like you said, it is a Early and say sort of the next year goes great for you guys, which I hope it does. I love your platform. Um what is sort of the dream scenario in a year or two years where you see aqua going as the community keeps growing and more people keep joining the Web three space and sort of more platforms sort of jump onto you to use your marketing services.
Yeah, the dream scenario first is for the industry, we go from three million users, so let's call it 30 million users or something that's a reasonable to 10 X, but it's still relatively small in the next year. And that's a 10 X on where we are today. And then Aqua we become the leading community for gamers looking for new Blockchain games and by the way they can track back while they're there. And second we become the leading community for gamers that publishers want to meet the publishers want to somehow be introduced to so that it's less about the marketplace. So the marketplace is important, it's more about discovery and community and education. And so that's really where we're going to focus on obviously the transaction matters, but you can almost see us as the marketplace in that we kind of like T Mobile used to be the un carrier. We're not trying to push transactions wash trading any of that type of thing just to ramp ramp up volume, if anything we want to encourage gamers to hold their assets longer and we're looking at some different tactics around that around our token and how we reward because we think that's better for gamers better for games we want to get away from the last couple of years where again it was just about price and people were just, how fast can I trade in and out of assets
gamers and game studios and making sure that we all work together to create an ecosystem that is about sustainable gameplay and having fun and not necessarily about trading your assets, although that's still important.
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Um and one of the things that we've seen, um as far as assets and people trading them is hex sort of becoming more and more of a thing, which has been frustrating for a lot of people and it's sort of no way to get around it. People are going to try and exploit anyway. They can. So I was curious how how security, how important security is for you guys and trying to make sure that your users are safe and that we figure out ways to sort of handle things quickly and in a manner that maybe the users are happy with as well.
Yeah, we don't see as much hacks in gaming, we see that the financial aspects of gaming, like we saw with actual infinity at the chain level, but in games themselves, I think the first, the best thing we can do is work with developers to create really sustainable ecosystems, which sounds like a funny answer. Hacks occur because assets are really high priced and most that's not sustainable from a game perspective, what I love about gods and changes it has you know millions I guess three million N. F. T. S. Anywhere from like 10 cents up to $10,000. But most of them are much more reasonable price. So when you have reasonable price assets like a dollar, $2 or $5 most people don't try and hack them because the rewards for hacking individual wallet to get $30 aren't really there versus getting a crypto punk or aboard a yacht club at $300,000. So we don't see acting gaming as much. But I really do believe in in being a safe place to trade. So we are spending some time looking at that of what, what defines a safe place. Do we do some level of verification, not K.
Y. C, which is a full legal term but an element of how do we, when we look at wallets that are trading on a more active basis, do we look at the wallet because we don't know who the person is and start to understand is that a wash trade going on back and forth, which we don't agree with nor necessarily want to sustain or is there some sort of spike that is not natural. So I would say we're early in our journey but we want to be the safe place to transact, there's room for the Wild west and rug poles and anonymity, it's just not on our platform. And so when we think about again, Web three, it's not about those aspects. Web three for us is about ownership and being able to safely transfer and efficiently transfer the assets you want both back and forth so you can have more fun to be entertained.
Yes, absolutely. And I think that's another reason why it's so important that the projects that you guys are partnering with are so high quality and we can see that from some of the announcements that you guys have made in the past
completely. We're trying to keep the quality bar, I can't say what would be perfect, but trying to keep the quality bar if you're an anonymous founder do not apply. It's just not what we do. So it's, there's many, many great games out there being developed by amazing developers, but the days of anonymity and rub poles and randomness is just has passed, at least from my perspective, you can continue in other places,
awesome, awesome, sounds great. Um, and so before we sort of call it quits here, I'd love to hear if you have any more stuff on your roadmap that you'd like to get into or any releases that you have up as far as partnerships that you want to talk about.
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Obviously I was looking for more games. Uh, and so it will be a games come next week. I was happy to meet their, but realistically what is, is we're testing on God's Unchained trying to now, you're going to see our first game. We're trying to be very deliberate again, we're not missing anything big. There are very few gamers right now, so it's okay, but we want to get this right. And so what you'll see over the next few weeks is community and content start to be deployed. You'll see videos, you'll see influencers, you'll see some contests, different ways to bring God's Unchained Gamers go new and existing over to aqua to see why it's better then what you'll see is the launch of more games of course, and more chains, we're currently immutable. We'll be adding additional chains as the games come along. We're not change specific, we're game specific. So if we see a set of games or even one cool, really cool game under the chain, that's worth us supporting that. So that's the that's the next thing.
Uh and then we're going to look at how to make it a little more mobile friendly. Our our app was built a little bit to desktop centric, which is fine for the existing audience, especially in the West, but it's not came out of facebook where obviously we have three billion users and most of them are on phones. So so we need to make sure how to get a more mobile friendly service over the next couple of months because this is a global business, this is not just about the U. S. Or about Western europe, this is really what I love about Blockchain and I love about gaming is is truly global and we're going to see and lots of different types of games appeal to lots of different people and we need to make sure we're a marketplace for all of those people, not just for a certain genre or a certain type of gamer, but that's really where is about, expand the capacity, expand the features especially around gaming and expand the education and content around the marketplace.
Yes, absolutely. And I really look forward to seeing somewhere of your content out there and what you guys have going on, really looking forward to it. Um so thank you Sean for joining me today. I really appreciate it. I'm really excited to have the community here, what you guys have going on and see where you guys move in the future.
I appreciate, thank you, thank you so much for what we are.
So once again a big thank you to Shawn Ryan for joining me today, I really like what they're doing with their platform by being more than just a way to transfer goods from one player to another and also the fact that they take their time to decide which games are actually going to go on their platform and who they're partnering with is really going to ensure the quality of what you're seeing there and also maybe give you a better idea of which games you should be following and pursuing. I'm really looking forward seeing what games they partner with in the future. Check out the show notes for their socials to get the most up to date information and their website info. Alright, that's all for today. Thanks for listening. And if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and follow me on twitter or instagram for one future episodes come out and if you want to support the podcast, feel free to join our discord where to get access to exclusive giveaways, chat with me about upcoming projects, find out what I'm investing in details in the show notes. Thanks again and happy NFC Hunting.