Be Ready for The Impact NFTs will Have on The Music Industry

January 20, 2022

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Today's episode is a podcast I did called Mint! We discuss all things NFTs pertaining the music industry, the current state of NFTs, how musical artists and their fans should think of NFTs, what trends from 2021 I think will set the tone in 2022 and much more!

Enjoy! Let me know what you thought.


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  • Transcript

    this is the Gary vee audio experience. Gary. Welcome to mint my friend. How you doing, how you feeling?

    Of

    course, thank you for being on, let's dive right in. Okay. I want to talk to you about the current state of N. F. T. S right now. Okay. You've obviously been a very big proponent, very vocal on this stuff. What is the current state of N. F. T. S.

    Um I would say the current state is incredible innovation on how humans interact. Communities are built ah kind of the same reason sports teams work bands, work financial interest. But I also think a ton of bad behavior where people are really incredibly uh navigating through greed and short term economics and I think that's a formula for a lot of projects to fail and it's gonna be a game of hits and misses.

    Okay. But with with every exciting thing, Okay, there's always like the bad actors, there's always agreed I guess what is like more of like the optimistic outlook you think for 2022 that we're approaching?

    Well actually I actually think what I said is incredibly optimistic. I think to your point The Internet was insane in 94 95 96 97 98 when everybody first heard about it and a lot of people weren't even bad actors, they weren't scams. Their companies were just value too much because people didn't anticipate the timing that it would take for everyone to catch on. So I think that My statement there isn't to create negativity, it's to create caution because I think so many people are gonna buy a $7,000 snail with a party hat and you know so I view it as N. F. T. S. Are like stuffed animals but there's gonna be beanie babies in there, there's gonna be you know cabbage patch kids, there's gonna be things that go up and things that go down and I just want people to be thoughtful. That's just on the collecting and the art part LFTs overall when they become smart contracts for ticketing access leases contracts between people. I think they're gonna be pretty powerful. Um And I'm really excited about the evolution over the next decade.

    I'd love to hear it. Okay I wanna I wanna dive into music. Okay season four of mint. The whole theme is around music. Okay. I've seen videos on you online talking with different artists in your office on how they should be thinking about their N. F. T. Music strategy and whatnot. How should musical artists be thinking about N. F. T.

    S. Right? And I want you to take this from the point of view of independent artists and also artists who have record deals for example because the current state from what we're seeing, we're seeing a lot of independent artists, a lot of success from crowdfunding threat. FTS through social tokens etcetera. How should they be looking at it? You think

    independence should be looking at it as a financial um opportunity versus taking an upfront check from a record label, if they think that they can be great at continued sustained marketing. And so You know, the economics 50 50 deals or 2080 deals with a label, Is that better than selling a piece of your royalties in perpetuity to your fan base is a really fun and fascinating question. And most people will Today won't put in the work or build a team around them to successfully launch a $500,000, $1 million dollar and ft launch where the Artist keeps 80% of the equity and the fans get 20% of the royalties on this first project. And as Penny's come in from the Spotify Eyes and the apples forever. It gets distributed. But there will be a couple and somebody will be that person that comes along. And is the chance the rapper is the rust. Is that person that you know what chance and rusted as independents Is much harder than today. If both of them were 18 coming up the game and knew everything they could do on the Blockchain, they would quote unquote, pull it off. And the reason a lot of those artists that stayed independent then signed deals is that short term influx of a million $5 million dollars is so hard. I mean, you know, I'm going to negotiate a new book deal right now and I could go on Shane and I might, yeah, I might I probably will. But harpercollins especially because we've done five books together is going to have a chance to buy me out from doing the work.

    But I think a lot of independent artists 247 years from the filming of this will opt to do a project that represents a piece of the action versus taking upfront check because they'll take all that money and their manager or their homies will become the marketing engine and try to do the things that the record label does to create sustained demand. And in the world of SoundCloud, in the world of Tiktok and everything in the future that's going to come out that looks like it. Um I think it's gonna be viable to the most entrepreneurial and operational music artists not to the people who are just an artist that don't even want to deal with it. And those people are gonna continue to sign record deals and I think it's a game of both. Its it's not like these are gonna kill the record industry, it's just gonna evolve It.

    Yeah. So you just mentioned a bunch of stuff that actually I follow on questions to. Okay but for starters what do you think the relationship between like record labels and music artists looks like now with the introduction of N. F. T. S all these tokenized assets and whatnot. And I only ask you this because back in season three I had this guest on, her name is Latasha super talented artist has an amazing story. We basically had this hot take where music labels are going to become like creative hedge funds, meaning a lot of these artists are gonna start tokenize in themselves, are gonna have different forms of assets on Shane, from social tokens to N. F. T. S to music N. F.

    T. S. To to fandom to all these different things. And that these hedge funds might actually evolve into hedge funds. They not these hedge funds, the record labels will develop into hedge funds, right? Do you see that kind of coming to fruition? Do you have a different take

    on that? I mean what do you think? I feel like they're kind of that now, but the collateral is the music royalties and this is just becoming another version of another tool in that toolbox. So, I mean, I would argue that that's what they are today. Their bank making bets and eight out of 10 artists, nine out of 10 99 out of 100 you know the music people are listening know this better than I do, could be 999 out of a 1000 really don't hit. And if you get a Dell or Eminem, it probably pays for it all. And by the way, no different than hedge funds and venture capitalist firms. And so yeah, I think that's happening now. I think the bigger question is an N. F. T. Project can now generate a million or $2 million in an hour if you do it well will that lead to the fans getting the royalties versus a record label?

    Because of the technology of the Blockchain is the most interesting conversation in music.

    So walk me through that more. So

    that's cool right? Like if yeah like if you're Nirvana and you haven't signed the deal yet And it's 1990 and you're on the come up 88 89. Nirvana fans will know this better. I'm just guessing the time range. Instead of signing a deal you put out an N. F. T. Project cause now it's 2025 everybody knows how this all works and you put out a bunch of tokens with different art. Maybe your album cover with different variations. And you say that you know this token represents a sliver of the royalties. We have you know we have 1000 units. And you know it's gonna add up to to 20% of our royalties.

    So Point oh 2.2 whatever the math is their 0.2. And And that's it. And fans can now buy 567. And then as the economics come from the distribution partners of today you're as a fan getting royalties on the music. I mean musicians that really hit make a lot of money on royalties and whatever deal or good or bad or indifferent deal they have and That is very good for the artist because an artist on a good day will get 50% of the deal with the record labels sometimes 20%. They also have to pay back the label for every expense. So when the album when the record gets promoted they spend $100,000 on a billboard. That's really the artist is paying that right because they have to pay that back before it's profitable. I think if you have 10,000 fans who have financial interest and you being successful we've already seen fans of music forever want to pump their up and coming artists until they hit big and then they get mad

    because

    yeah now that was getting getting

    getting too excited man too excited.

    Now instead of getting mad when Dave Matthews or or Nirvana or whoever ex lady gaga exploded. Now you're gonna have people that are thrilled because they're gonna make money right? Like can you imagine like this is going to change the relationship graph between artists and fans, fans who now we're really good at picking up and coming artists. Almost like A. And R. They're going to now be able to potentially over the next decade as this gets matured. Be part of the action. Imagine you're living. I know a bunch of people who are passionate about music, we're gonna hear this and be like oh ship this is exciting. Imagine what you do for a living is try to find up and coming artists and by the N. F. T.

    S to get a piece of the royalties and that you're good enough at it. That the Billie Eilish or the weekend or the, you know, Roddy Rich or whoever you find Hits enough that your little sliver because you bought seven tokens is strong enough to make it a go.

    So that's the thing. So we're already seeing like friends happen together, creating these multi signature wallets, contributing anything buying assets of artists that they love and adore that are up and coming on platforms like catalog on sound, on mint songs on bolero, et cetera. Are you buying any yourself? Have you bought any music FTS?

    I have not.

    Do you have any interest to in the future? Do you see

    yourself in a substantial way?

    What are you looking for? Like what

    what what would you look and listen, I have a huge secret weapon, I have Mike Boyd, we you know, I've unlimited videos on the internet of me sitting down with artists that we thought were gonna be hitting and successful and whether that's gonna or whoever it might be like Tierra whack or you know, little key like T grizzly. These are people that I would love to buy. You know, sweetie was in my office doing a podcast long? Well when she just got out of doing car rap videos, you know, if I go and buy 35 of her n. f. t projects which represented .35% of her royalties. I believed in her, I believe in her swag her hustle her creativity. I would have done really well.

    Yeah makes sense. I want to I want to talk more about these independent artists because a lot of them are getting much favorability from the theorem community. Um how do you go by building a well oiled machine? Like how can you build a system where the creative the artists can focus on creating what they do best and I guess not spend too much time on the day to day labor of community building and that could be actually taken in a different way. Right? So should the to even be treated separately. Right because we're seeing a lot of creatives like they get the creating part, they understand the producing of music, they get all that stuff. And then when it comes to opening the discord, when it comes to opening the telegram, when it comes to creating consistent content keeping the narrative alive with with their collectors, how do you actually go by doing that? I feel like it's one of the biggest challenges plaguing a lot of these artists from jumping deeper into web three,

    They give 3% of the action to the Adam or Gary in their life. These artists have given up 10 2030, 80% of their economics for the last 100 years they're gonna build new partnerships, there's gonna be new the modern day scooter bronze. Gayo series chris like these people that came up coach K these they're gonna evolve these managers into different business kind of partners. I mean I could take three of my good people right now and start a record label that do all of what you just said better than anybody on earth and dominate.

    I'm down. So

    I think that's what's going to happen. And um I think the role of the manager of the role of the record label, the role of the agent promoter. It's going to get convoluted into some new transformed version where the guys and girls that we look up to that have crushed management and representation and distribution will now have to tweak into a new form where they're you know listen The best manager or record label in 1967 went into radio stations and strong armed the guys and girls to play your record. Then it was who could get you on trl. Then it was like who understands Spotify algorithm. Like it's always evolving who brings the most value.

    Yeah. I don't know. I kind of see the relationship and this goes back to my other question about like the role between record labels and artists right? As more and more artists they tokenize themselves on chain. Uh These record labels will be buying these assets rather than owning the person right? They'll be co owning pieces of their work and their role will kind of shift to community managers right of managing all these collectors and and being in the discords, being in the telegrams, being in these communities setting up viral events and you are L events and whatnot. And seeing that kind of model like evolved as this demand for fan to artist relationship kind of gross. Right? So I kind of see that taking shape and an echo that you kind of feel the same way I want to jump into social token.

    Go ahead. Yeah. Community management is the slang term you've decided to use for it. I would just call it a modern contemporary marketing executive, right? Because it's whether it's discord or making original content on Tiktok or knowing how to run Spotify ads in their self service. Like I do you know, back to what I do for a living and what media does for a living. It is a lot more nuanced. That has 6 to 17 things. I think a lot of people think it's a spoon and I think it's a swiss army knife. It's not just Tiktok or discord community management content for Tiktok versus instagram versus Youtube shorts. It's also running ads to amplify under underpriced ARB, it's also audio, it's copy its influencer. Marketing arbitrage.

    It's, it's community replying on twitter. It's mean creation. It's a lot,

    yeah, it's it's an entire new beast. Um and I'm excited to kind of see it unfold even more over the next few years.

    I agree. There was beasts. She and he in 1967 that were just as good at radio and television and doing a print ad and doing an outdoor ad and that was a 360 marketer in 19 67. You were you were a unicorn if you could do that. Right. What I just said and I'm sure there were plenty of people here on Madison Avenue. That could I think one of the things that has been the tale tale of my career is that I can do them all. I can have a podcast. I can win on Tiktok, I can have a website, an email letter, a text messaging platform and N. F. T. Project at this court.

    Right? And I think for the artists that are gonna say I'm not going to work with a label they're gonna need somebody that's at least good at two out of seven of those things. Three out of 74 out of seven. Otherwise they're gonna be better off taking the upfront bag from the label.

    Yeah makes a lot of sense. What's up guys adam levy here? I wanted to take a quick pause to give some love to coin vise. Our N. F. T. Sponsor who's making this episode a reality on coin vise. You can create a personal or community owned social token on ethereum coin buys also helps you create incentives through token rewards and bounties, N. F. T. Business models and integrations for discord discover more by visiting coin vis dot co today. Alright back to the episode.

    I want to pivot into social tokens and creator coins something that was the impetus of starting mint from the get go about 56 months ago. I wanted to ask you why don't you think creator coins have had their spotlight yet? Like N. F. T. S. Right? Like in 2020 we saw excitement around platforms like big cloud creating human stock markets. We saw platforms like coin vise pump out thousands Of social token projects and community coins in 2021.

    I don't think I still I don't think they feel is good. I mean I I went down the rabbit hole in 17 or 18 and really thought about Bitcoin and this and that and it just feels too much like a financial transaction where and N. F. T. Has a different element of collectibility community. It just feels different. I'll give you a good example. Why do people why do people take photos with Rolexes and and and burka bags on a yacht in a private plane driving a Lambo but don't ever post their bank account.

    What do you know how many DmS I get of like random people shilling their stock market portfolio like that

    but I think you'll agree with me that of course there's people holding cash. I'm just having a hard time. No no no you're actually right. I agree. I think they do do it more on D. M. We see it far less in the main social post because there's a level of do sherry that you cannot avoid if you're gonna go directly to. I got seven million in my bank account but I have this apartment in Malibu on the border different. It alludes to it. It's one thing to say. I have $480,000. It's another thing to say I have aboard a yacht club.

    And so I think the reason you've seen N. F. T. S. Go and this was my thesis is because there are more how humans actually act currencies are very very one dimensional and hard to build back up when dead N. F. T. S. Are gonna be like brands an N. F. T. Project can have a big 2011.

    Let's pick one. I like a lot of cool cats, Great kids. I hope they dominate. Hope it becomes fucking Disney. Well, let's say it doesn't, it's had a great year. So you know what that means, that it means if that project doesn't win over the next decade in 11 years, I can buy that brand. Buy up a bunch of the tokens and refurbish it. The way the champion went from a fucking private label bullshit sweatpants brand for a 50 year old to the hottest streetwear brand for two years. The way that Lacoste was hot in the eighties, dead and nineties and 2000 and had a moment again, the way that Reebok now under the salters may get rebooted. Like we've seen brands go from hot starter jackets up down, right? That that's what an N. F.

    T. Can do that. A social token will have a much harder time doing.

    So then what what's the incentive of, let's say someone like boarded the yacht club, okay, issuing the apes as like membership passes into the club and then sharing this grandiose roadmap of a governance token coming into play. Why do you think? Why do you think that's critical? Do you think it's a mistake? How do you feel about

    that? I don't know because I haven't really allowed myself yet to be thoughtful enough of tokenization to give you a great answer right now. I

    which I think is the beauty of this space to write. We're seeing this stuff unfold in real

    time. And also I have, I do well when I observe and then communicate quickly because then I have conviction and I have, I don't want to be on your show, have people watch and then whatever I say right now, if I guess the wrong that hurts me, I'm very proud of every like I want everybody to watch every video receipt of me for the last 15 years. I think that's my strength instead of a weakness. I don't have a good sense yet as an entrepreneur and a businessman of what governance tokens, how they play out. I see the ACSI stuff. I see it. I see it it's all coming. It's all coming. It's something that I know for sure. I will have a moment probably this year since its mid, late, maybe early 23 that I'll probably have to ask my question of. Am I going to do anything like that with the friends because we're friends forever for me? But I prefer to see like I'm excited that board api clubs doing that.

    I think I heard cool cats might do it like I'm not sure who's doing it, but I'm gonna be watching all of them to learn and react. My my belief is that it's not super hard to make the tokens have one set of governance and to have the N. F. T. Do a different. But I do think that projects have to be very thoughtful to make sure that the only reason they're not, they have to make a big big honest conversations with themselves around are we issuing this strictly because it's good for us financially or do we think this is gonna work out long term.

    Yeah, makes sense. Let's talk about dowse for for for for a minute. Okay. Uh, you've always wanted to buy the Jets, you always talk about it. It's your lifelong goal. So what do you say? Let's form a doubt to by the Jets. Okay. All right, wait, wait, all the friend holders will be white listed. It will be a community owned, the first community owned NFL team. It will be the destination for crypto and football lovers. What do you think?

    Let's do it.

    I think first of all, I think it will happen. I mean, I've already done it with a english with a soccer team and I wrote a small check cause I want to watch it and I want to learn. I think the thing that's really interesting with me is that I and I've and I've been clearing this up for the last six years because I want people to really know because it might help them. My passion is trying to buy the jets more than actually buying them. And I it's run through my mind. I'll keep watching this space. I also know that would be highly unlikely that the NFL owners would I want that to be the case is my intuition I could be wrong, but My great love affair is the process much more than the destination. My goal is to is to try to buy the jets more than two by the jets and I'm still young. I'm 46 years old. I want to keep building blocks. And so I'm not in a quote unquote rush and I still have a lot of value. I need to bring to the world.

    If I was to then go any kind of route that looked like that. And so it's not on my radar.

    Well, when it does come on your radar, I hope you decide to form a dow and include all of us to buy,

    you know, this and you know, you're educated. I think it's really fun to watch the douse the dow's, there's a lot of things on earth that are amazing ideologies and then go against the human spirit. Right? So one thing that I'm excited to see how does play out is like it's great to think about these things, But like we've seen a ton of Taos really struggle with human behaviour. So there's going to be continued innovation. And I think the Dow's of 2025 are going to be a hell of a lot more thoughtful and sharper than the Dow's of 2021.

    Yeah, I think the current state of Taos is a lot of people want to create doubts, but a lot of people, like I don't want to contribute to them as much right? I think a lot of people want to create governance processes, but a lot of people don't want to contribute to those government processes. People don't

    even vote.

    A lot of people don't even know what you end up seeing that like the largest shareholders, like the funds end up controlling the direction of the protocol and you see them voting publicly on snapshot or their own governance forums and whatnot. So I think in theory, I think, yes, there's a lot of opportunity I, I've started douse I've contributed to douse, I love the concept of the house. I love seeing artists issue assets of themselves like music artists, whether it be in the form of an N. F. T. A social token, whatever, maybe. And then all these collectors coming together collectively building this artist. So I think there's different use cases that come into play that make it notable and worth exploring. I think like you said, these ideologies can kind of like stifle people in blur vision. Alright, let's talk about minimum viable communities. Okay. Um this is something that I introduced on the podcast back like october 2021.

    Okay, and this concept of an M. V. C, how do you think about the differences and the similarities between building an M. V. P. In an NBC?

    What comes to mind, what comes to mind is they work because you're crawling before you run. Like I'm sitting with kids that have never built anything in their life and their their opening line is like Gary. I'm building Hello kitty. I'm like brother, you haven't even launched anything in your life, You've never run anything and I'm all about it. I'm all about it. I'm like sister, you got this, I'm cheering for you, I'll help you, who can I help you with, But like I love mv whatever because it creates a framework for people to be more thoughtful Patient, there are so many people doing everything right now for a cash grab short term, I'm so excited how this is gonna play out for me because I know I'm doing this for the rest of my life and I think 99.9999999% of the people are not. And for me that gives me great comfort because I think historically that will play out well for me, I'm concerned about the people that buy these N. F. T. S, Because I think so many will fail for the reason that we're talking about. But I love it. Get 200, that's how I started my career.

    Do you know many people in the first three years of wine library TV? There were 700 people that adored me three years by the way, then I had to restart because I decided I wanted to do content about my actual life, not just my wine, Right? So I almost have to restart because all my white people are like, don't, what are you doing? You don't do business, you do. Why? And I'm like, no, I've been doing business the whole time. But that's the thing,

    How do you find those 700 people like the minimum viable?

    You content? You don't find them, they find you through content you want to. It's very easy right now for N. F. T. Projects. Go put out thoughtful content on twitter, put hashtag N. F. T Linked to your discord in your profile and let people come 1-17 or 190 at a time based on the quality of the content you put out.

    So television 1st vs

    The # one issue, push it like a fucker. Everybody is so uncomfortably impatient to build something meaningful that all the comments, all the questions, all the strategies are grounded in instant success, which is why they'll all fail From 2007 to 2011. I spent more than five hours a day on Twitter replying to people about wine questions every day, it's documented. I'll pull up my if I pull up my Twitter right now, right? Let me just pull it up. I have how did you find this? Where did they put these now? Where's what you're looking for, share screen? I'm looking I'm not looking for share screen, I'm looking for how many tweets I've put out. Where do they put

    that? I feel like it should be at the top of your profile. Like

    I thought so too. But I don't

    I'm before even say I'm guessing like, a million two million something like

    that. Many

    Because like as you're as you're finding that, okay, so those 1st 700 people, okay, when, when a creator, when an independent artist, when someone entering the space, Okay, tries to build that initial pulse around their vision around their ideologies. Your take is to push out content at these hashtags and like tap into these like discovery mechanisms that allow you to kind of find these people that resonate with what you're trying to do is that how you're approaching it, right? So like let's say for like independent artists okay they want to issue music N. F. T. S. They want to find collectors. How do they build like an NBC? How do they actually go by doing that?

    They spend six months learning about N. F. T. S. And live on discord and twitter or again like I said earlier, have their homey right hand manager two point oh do it because there is no other way to do it because the N. F. T. Community that knows how to buy an FFT today is too small to tech savvy to different and they have incredible cynicism to anybody who's not native, they don't like famous people or or or people they can smell right, they can smell it. And so every authentic small community can always smell bullshit. And right now N. F. T buyers are too small.

    Yeah.

    Yeah makes sense. Okay let's let's because I know we're running out of time. Okay let's let's wrap this up with a couple more questions. Okay, really quick biggest trends you've observed in 2021 that you see will set the tone for 2022 fired off.

    I'm sorry to say this but it's important to me. Greed is taking over something that in the macro is revolutionary. N. F. T. S. Are here to stay for the rest of our lives But 99% of the projects that are out right now will not be good investments. It's a huge trend. I it's important for everybody listening here but I got everybody here the flip side When Internet stocks crashed in 2000 Amazon and ebay were sitting there for dollars and if you put in 1000 it would have changed your life forever.

    I think it's a mic drop. So look for the dollars like quality. Whether it's whether it's

    48, whether it be friends, whether it's creatures world of women doodles, friends. 7-12 of these are going to hit in the 80s. All these after school television shows, cartoons he man rainbow bright care bears, right transformers. They a lot of them hit many more. Never made it on the air and many more made it on the air and didn't hit. That's what's happening right now. Yeah

    that makes sense. Alright. Final uh final series real quick. Okay why don't you do something first time on mint. Okay. Called bullish or bearish. Alright I'm gonna fire some things that you so and you're gonna tell me whether you're bullish or bearish on them. Okay. Social tokens bullish or bearish.

    I want you social as in like around people

    like the currencies like creator coins. Community coins etcetera, neutral neutral.

    I'll tell you why in theory I like it most of the behavior around it right now. Short term cash grab.

    Okay. Music FTS bullish or bearish.

    Bullish,

    Punks flipping apes. Bullish or bearish. Yeah, back

    in perpetuity. Yeah. Bullish

    Bush. Were you surprised when, when that happened when punks

    know the moment? I mean be a YC has got so much momentum kudos to that team grocery. The original founders like it's sometimes runaway train's a runaway trains. Their challenge. Like for anything that gets that ultra hot is Nike just steams along and you have moments of you know, the kids, the Supremes that right? And so like what their challenge will be is sustaining the ultra Nous and those very hot things and by the way, I'm cheering for them. I hope they do it. It's fucking hard. It's like any supernova, right? Like a superstar. That lady gaga is a legend but like it's not what it was when she was on television every second coming out of it, right? It's like those moments.

    That's that's hard and I think they've got the talent to do it. I mean you look at the grocery he's managed Madonna one of the few people that has been able to consistently do so like it's really fun to watch but it's gonna be hard.

    Alright v friends flipping apes and punks bullish or

    bearish.

    I think I'm

    going to build the number one project in the space if you give me the rest of my life but much like trying to buy the jets. I just want to try to do that like 78 year old me seeing the Larva guys, we're seeing the board and then, and then being 5 10 x to me, I go up there with handshake and like real love like man, you guys really like, I'm really proud of what I did, but you got like, I love giving roses to people that outperform me in my business when you know when I'm at the Sam's Wine club, people say Sam's in Chicago, big wine store. When I met bob Hoffman may rest in peace when they were a much bigger story than wine library and doing it better. I couldn't wait to run up to him at the wine spectator. Maybe like you guys are doing like, even though every day of my life I'm trying to do it better. I love when people outperform me because it's based on merit, but do I believe that the friends will be number one? I do because I think I think I'm more walt, Disney and Vince McMahon and I've talked about who's two and I think I'm that and I'm gonna do it

    amazing. Alright, last to douse bullish or bearish, very bullish, very bullish. Okay. The US operating like a version of a doubt where every citizen's vote is captured on chain during political elections, bullish or bearish.

    Bearish

    bearish. Really?

    Okay. I think there's gonna be too much defense in Washington for that.

    Alright. Gary. This was fun man, Thank you so much for your time. I hope to have you on again soon.

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