Roger Ver Interview - Bitcoin Cash vs Bitcoin, Future of Crypto, FTX, Ripple, Privacy Coins & CBDCs - Transcripts

December 02, 2022

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Roger Ver talks about FTX, The future of Crypto, Bitcoin Cash vs Bitcoin, investments in Ripple, Kraken and 100 other crypto companies, Privacy Coins, Governments, Bitcoin Cash adoption, CBDCs and much more. 🌟Sponsor -...


this content is brought to you by poll which is a great platform that makes crypto investing easy you can buy sell trade and earn crypto currencies and I pulled the up Tempelsman users over two hundred plus crypto currencies and they're available in a hundred and fifty countries I personally use this platform since twenty seventeen to one of my go to exchanges we also offer equities and precious metals that you can invest in if you'd like to learn more about a poll please visit the link in the description welcome back to the thinking crypto podcast your home for crypto currency news any interviews with me today is Roger Baer was a big win evangelist angel investor entrepreneur and won the very first investors in the crypto ecosystem Roger itself pleasure having on the show

thank you for having me on today

Roger I as I was mentioning before the recording I you are a crypto O. G. I've been following you for years you've invested in so many crypto companies you've seen a lot of market cycles and I have a lot of questions for you about what's happening in the crypto market now but I also wanted to get to know you a bit better and your background I I've seen you talk about your experiences and in different interviews but I want to start off with for example where you're from and where did you grow up

yeah I I grew up in Silicon Valley and browse around computers my whole life and ran a really popular for people they're old enough to even know what these things were it was a BBS that stands for both to board system I think you're probably maybe too young to turn over those first hand but they were really popular before the internet became popular people dial but the motives and connect other computers in the neighborhood and it was a really fun time X. you everybody was a little bit yes live somewhere in your neighborhood it's not like we're on the internet you have no idea where with the other people around the world I grew up in Silicon Valley but and you know talk with you today from a Tokyo Japan

yeah no clearly you're into technology was that was there a technology job or career that you wanted to do when you when you were growing up you know what was your ideal job

so when I was really young my ideal job was and I'm dead serious about this I really want to be a garbage van or garbage truck driver and the reason I want to do that is because you get to drive all over the neighborhood and talked all sorts of people can see everything that's going on and I used to wake up every I forget which day of the week was Tuesday or Wednesday when the garbage truck would come when I'd watch it operates the giant every machinery to do that to me as a young man that seems like a really really exciting exciting job so I I still like you know big machinery and heavy you have real quick and that sort of thing as well

well it's it's so kind of it you know as far as machinery and technology is concerned serendipitous that you ended up with big point and and you know the mining behind that and the tech revolution behind that

yeah I I think that was more of the I'll play from my having been involved in the E. commerce from the very earliest days I got I got started and E. commerce before it was easy for people there is no PayPal you can it was almost impossible to build to accept credit cards your website was really difficult the way almost everybody's doing E. commerce in the earliest days of the internet is they would literally have to go to the post office and by a postal money order and then said that in the mail people they might not even order postal money order is it's basically a check from the post office to get the post office cash and they give you a check this band out from the post office to whoever you want to fill it out too and that we will the person receives it they know that it's not a fit check and it's not gonna bounce because it's for the post office and so people were literally sending those in the mail to buy things off the internet in the early days from independent merchants and so every day with the mail and would come I was like Christmas lights you know what what checks or what postal money orders does he have an email for me today from people all over the country and occasionally from international people as well

and the I. D. in commerce site you're talking I said memory dealers dot com was at

it's what went on to become a member dealers dot com with the Chinese this is nineteen ninety eight or something like that ninety nine I'd really early days and I remember PayPal first came along that seems like an absolute miracle to wait I can send money by email I think if you know if first was ten dollars heard first I signed up in the late it was five dollars per person I signed up like I made a bunch of money from you referring people to PayPal and then later on there's another company called eagle which was a fantastic idea you could transfer of ownership of gold reserves electronically but the gold physically stay put in their various faults and was trying to get more traction and I was accepting it for payments on my website my eBay sales and then the U. S. government came and seized all the gold because some of the users of eagle bruising for things the government did not like that all the normal people that were just using it for almost almost got got the gold seized as well as that became a real problem and so then I don't another decade or so went by and the one bit coin came along there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that people would start using this for payments on the internet because it was better than PayPal is better than postal money orders it was better than eagle because the point can't be seized if you're holding the middle wall which you control in the early days that that was just like taken for granted everybody would hold the private keys and and hold their own thought was worse more recently that's kind of changed due to intentional congestion on big corn in there the high fees associated with that now lots of people contrasting their cryptocurrency with historians and we've seen in the early days for people that are a lot handover bit Konica and then now **** and then you know there's been a whole bunch more words recently with the most recent one being F. T. acts but that just shows don't let other people hold your cryptocurrency or you're going to be in line for about time eventually might not happen tomorrow but eventually you know bad things are gonna happen that's why it's so important for crypto currencies to be usable in a way in which people can hold the crypt occurrences and self and not be dependent on the on the custodian to hold for them and that's been my mantra since day one which is almost twelve years ago now since I've been involved in crypto currencies so and was very quickly

so what was your first encounter with big point with that a friend tell you about it did you see it on the forums what was that initial hi you know it takes exposure to it and what was your aha moment

so the first exposure was in twenty ten and it was mentioned on this radio show called free talk live just in passing and I spent just maybe one minute two minutes googling a little bit and I thought oh this is kind of interesting but you know with with only spending you know a couple minutes on it you can't really wrap your head around everything is going on that's kind of interesting too bad nobody's using it nobody's using it will by next next thing in my life and then I heard about it again on that same radio show like a month or two later and then I Google did again and that's when I put the pieces together my mind that wait a minute the blockchain's this decentralized ledger that's not anyone computers that means governments can't go in and manipulate words which big clincher blocked the payments received people sponsor this is gonna change everything people are gonna actually use this for payments all over the world and so I you know dove in head first and did everything I could to promote this the world and here we are to you know twelve years later and wow it's becoming

a real

force around the world work back then I would tell anybody that would listen to me and I would even tell people that wouldn't listen to me about bitcoin and what a big deal it was like if you met me from two thousand eleven until I don't twenty fifteen or sixteen there is zero chance you would not hear about the point for me in those days

now I read that you bought be quite under a dollar if that's correct so I have to ask are you a big one billionaire you one of the big coin whales out there

I've I've definitely done just fine if you didn't buy bitcoin cryptocurrency holdings over the years there so I don't know if they were they were right around a dollar sign and I'm pretty sure I got from around like I tried buying from all different places in fact actually very first because it would be free

all right

recent had a faucet and he was giving away free bit coins and I think I got a whole bit corn for free from that but that's when they were worth the only be twenty sensors ten cents or something like that but yeah I think you for Gavin for yesterday on that faucet and then if you go to school back to my Facebook page from to the early two thousand eleven you'll see I told anybody post to be quite interested I will send you adult five dollars ten dollars are right I think I give a whole bit coin or in the early days right and you can see hundreds of people to maybe thousands of people poster because addresses nine syndrome also declined in the early days because that's that was the the name of the game is to show people how this can work and how this is amazing and make work for anybody all over the world

did you try to mine big point at any point

I did I I tried running some with my CPU right would like towards the very end of where I still had a chance of mining a block with my CPU but I I didn't actually get lucky enough but then I did a lot of GPU mining and then after that the respect PJ's which I played with a little bit and then I've done some basic mining over the years as well but in the early days was easy to make money with my ex there wasn't so much competition in the price is going up and up and up where is now mining is really become a competitive business you really have to be a specialized expert in the field to make money buying crypto and it's specially are at the moment actually of course the prices pull back a lot that that makes it really difficult for for the miners around the world and at this point I'm glad that I'm not a cryptocurrency miner

yeah yeah I'm a lot of minors been facing a lot of pressure some had to file for bankruptcy it's it's a tough time now before we go further into your your crypto journey and investments and so forth I wanna talk but appear in your life where you you were arrested for I believe it was selling fireworks on eBay or something you went to jail and I'm really fascinated by that because you bounce back and I think that's a great story and and and now office you're doing well can you tell us about that time in your life and how we were able to bounce back from those things

yeah I I guess the way I look at it in in life you only have two choices you bounce back and you keep going as hard and fast as you possibly can


or you give up and die hi giving up and down distance configure the right option there so of course I had to keep going and if anything maybe just motivated me a little bit more like everyone and for people that don't know the background like the real reason I got arrested for political statements I made in regards to F. B. I need to get the murderers in reference to murdering a bunch of kids in a church in in Texas in the mid nineties and they really didn't like the fact that I was saying that sort of thing and I want to being the only person in the entire nation be arrested for selling these firecrackers without a license even though the company I was buying them from when they were shipping the re had no license the manufacturer had no license Cabella sporting goods catalog or something with the license dozens of other companies were standing across the country with the license yet I was the only person in the entire world to ever been prosecuted for sun those without a license and it it kind of made me just I I've course I was bad but one of the things that also really irked me is like I'm not the smartest guy in the world but I know I'm not stupid either and the in the pre sentence report which is this like report the government puts together can I give to the judge to try to tell them about what sort of person they think you are the packet with a whole bunch of lies and I still buy the guy talk about giving up and dying versus you know going hard this guy's probably dead and gone now because he was all back in this happened was there was Dr James message he wrote this really nasty report about me saying that I don't know that I I need to over estimate what I can do and and basically just was I didn't appreciate as a report one bit and if anything when I read his report that he gave to the judge just baby that much more motivated to go out there and do big things in the world I think at this point I definitely complicate a few things here and there but of the whole the whole system correct like what once you're prosecuted like they're just gonna grind usually gears and all you can do is is hope you can get out of style do everything you can to get out as fast as you can and then as soon as I was out I tried to get as far away from the machine as I possibly can and I'm no longer U. S. it's just that I'm not living in the U. S. I want nothing to do with their you know we'll see it just as they have over there but it's not just the US either it's in the country you really have to be careful just about anywhere in the world if you speak out against the powers that be the powers that be are gonna come for you to shut you up

so you it is the seems like some retaliation there and you were looking for whatever they could get you on and go out while I

while I was in prison the company that I was buying the firecrackers from was still selling them without a license and that that tells you that and I thought you know I sold a few thousand this coupled with like ten to maybe hundreds of thousands of them sure I'd like I was a small fish compared to this guy with no license but the differences are they did run for political office they didn't call the ATF and FBI bunch of murders if you wanna get them pissed off at you that's the way to do it so

so how did that happen with with you running for political office and and I believe you're a libertarian is that correct

yeah I guess the more recent the libertarian party's been a little bit better but for a while the Libertarian Party was very libertarian so the word I I prefer the most is voluntary est and what a voluntary is just is just somebody that thinks that all human interactions should be on a voluntary basis or not at all and that's pretty much how everybody deals with everybody all the time so for example for this interview you ask me Roger would you be willing to come and do an interview and I said yes I will and if you have a job the employer says would you be willing to come work here I'll pay you an exchange that the employee says yes I will if you ask your friend to go to dinner they still have the option to say no everything's voluntary everywhere in life with the exception being robbers because when rob rob you you don't have a choice to say no it's going to hurt you the other exception being rapists because the difference between being raped and making love is just concentric is not voluntary it's not it's not making luggage being raped and then the only other except in life that everybody just seems to be blind to just about all the time his government government interactions are not consensual they're just like rapists robbers in the sense that they're forcing their will upon you and you don't have the option to say no and everybody knows that robbers rapists are bad horrible people but everybody's been brainwashed from day one to think that it doesn't count when the government forces itself upon you in involuntary manner where's the rapists forces himself upon involved in there we all know it's bad in the real quickly I had is somebody you know growing up in America I I knew almost if there's a big war they need to have a draft into the do you use that to the to the country and I I thought that was okay and this man named Greg Murray Rothbard who wrote a bunch of amazing books I recommend anybody pick up any of his books and I'll change your entire view of the world but he pointed out the military draft is the moral equivalent of kidnapping and slavery and then I thought to myself wait a minute the draft is kidnapping and slavery and if kidnapping slavery is wrong which we all know it is people that claim they have the moral right to kidnap and enslave you they're not the good guys they're the bad guys and that was the turning point in my view the world I realize wait a minute the U. S. government or any government is forcing himself upon people involuntarily they're not the good guys they're the bad guys and and voluntary as in this is the word I liked it used to describe that because libertarianism people might not know maybe it's just like a Republican the once even lower taxes or a Democrat that wants more drugs to be legal or something like that they don't know but voluntary just I I think it's a very clear description all human interaction should be on a voluntary basis or not at all

I'm how to get to into into politics but I I do want to get your take on you know how do you think big pointed and even hello how blockchain and in a sense could help solve and bring back the balance to the people where it's not so much the government telling us what to do all the time and and and they don't have any accountability but maybe blockchain brings a more transparent and and trustless world

yet that that was the entire thing that attracted me so strongly to becoming a suddenly there's money that's beyond the reach of government control for the most part right and we need to make the technology even more hardened against government being able to interfere what people are doing and so that that was the entire goal from day one is to have a separation of money and state right everybody today for the most part knows the separation of church and state wound up being a good thing we need to have a separation of money and state which people now get to choose which form of money they want to use in the market just like you can choose if you want to use your visa MasterCard American Express like or or cash right it'll be nice to be able to choose the one who's you know US dollars Australian dollars Singapore dollars bit coin bitcoin cash Ethereum Cardano ripple like take your pick let's give people choice in the market and people naturally choose to use the services and the tools that are the most useful to them in their own lives and I I think you anytime you have a monopoly the the the quality of the product is poor the customer service is poor and often times the the expense of a providing it is really really high well let's have a an ends to the monopoly in the issuance of money and let's have some competition in the market just like it's great that we have to talk about and Burger King McDonalds and Arby's all competing for for fruit it was a competition in the area of money in this can lead to better money for everybody that that works better for everybody all over the world that's what cryptocurrency is all about for me and I'm looking for to see even more that that take hold in and around the world is that tend to spike

so actually agree with you there and maybe if there is a historical change taking place with you know with the birth of big point but now we see the governments are taking a blockchain and tokenizing fiat currencies on it and you know they're going to force people and injected into the economy and say you know don't worry about this big coin nor Easter Max R. P. thing he uses CBD C. and Mabel they'll give give you yield on it I don't know what are your thoughts on CBD season and what governments are doing now

yeah if if I can put on a conspiracy theory help for for a moment here the most destructive thing governments could have possibly done to the adoptions of crypto currencies around the world and echoing around the world would be to allow the blocks to become full on bit coin because that for the very first time the entire history because when the when the blocks became full companies that used to accept bitcoin for payments companies like Microsoft and Expedia and you know dell computer they stopped accepting bitcoin that was the first time the entire history big one which there was a negative it option and even to this very day Expedia still that didn't start accepting bitcoin again right so it's like that used to be my favorite go to travel website I can book everything would be going they still don't to this very day and if you read the press releases from these companies like steam but I have a great Presley's the specifically said the reason they stopped because the blocks to become become full and now the the transactions are slow expensive and unreliable and that's not usable for a payment network and so I think it was governments that initially propagandized the people into thinking that having a block size limit of one megabyte I'm decline was good and somehow they'd be quite more decentralized from the truth was it was the exact opposite and that gave governments more time to react and issue their central bank digital currencies and now you know how much is becoming used to cover some but nowhere near what it could have been if the fees had gone to fifty dollars in the transaction the parents had become more than two weeks on average four point in two thousand seventeen like it became absolutely unusable for free callers at this point and that open the door for all the governments to catch up and issue their central bank digital currencies and say oh don't worry about that bitcoin or Ethereum or Iran or any of that stuff look here's our digital dollar you can use that and people don't realize like this also even even with like tether and used to see if they can freeze your tethered USTC on the blockchain as well or your binance UST is well I don't think that that permission as it's not one bit it's convenient when it's working but they can freeze it just like the freeze your your bank account if they want to where's real crypto currencies like bitcoin cash in and others other than the narrows and see cash all privacy coins are huge fans of those are real crypto currencies where is if you have the private keys yourself nobody in the world can mess with your money and that's a really really big deal but if you're having to use a custodian to hold your cryptocurrency is probably gonna be the same history that's holding your central bank digital currency as well and they're gonna treat him just the same the freeze whichever ones they wanted anytime or do whatever they want loaned out or spend a dollar margaritas without your permission like we've seen happen recently like hold your own cryptocurrency yourself and you're gonna have a much better time in the cryptocurrency ecosystem that if you let somebody else hold it for you

so on the point of privacy coins I am a believer in privacy coins but I'm also worried the governments and we've seen them in a narrative forming here that you're you're putting a target on them and then there's been calls to ban them and so forth do you think they'll be able to successfully banned privacy coins

they will be able to successfully banned privacy popcorn but another real visionary in the Big Bang space was a guy named Mike Hearn who's a professional capacity planner Google and played a big role in the in the block size scale war she was advocating for big going to be able to scale to the money for the world but that the point that he made which I thought was just so once he said it made so much sense by never heard anybody say that clearly before he said even in the outlaw can't use an outlaw currency and what he meant by that is if the currency is outlawed even people they're doing illegal things you can't use it because you have to have enough legal transactions happening to be able to blend in with your your illegal transactions of governments make you know and again sometimes the manor community they they they get confused and think I'm attack on Iraq I bought a bunch of an error early on and I'm one of the biggest narrow fans out there but I see the writing on the wall like I'm doing this call from here in Japan Mineros already banned in Japan no Japanese exchanges allowed list narrow same thing next door yes same thing in Singapore same thing in lots of countries around the world privacy coins have been preemptively banned by governments around the world it's not that I think privacy coins are bad I think the government you're wrong for doing that but that's going to be a real hindrance to adoption if you can't you can't use it legally only outlaws are gonna be able to use it but the outlaws will want to use it because nobody else is using and they won't be able to blend in with all the other commerce out there so and that's why I'm I'm a real big fan of like privacy tools that sit on top of you know things like bitcoin or bitcoin cash like bitcoin cash at this awesome tool called a cash fusion gives on cash a similar ballpark of privacy is Minero like insane sort of ballpark people don't realize is that governments can't complain against it in the same way that they do is when era because it's turned on by default all the time within hours bitcoin cash just have to use a wallet that has it enabled and out most people are aware of that

so yeah I like I'm not a weird that ensued it sounds like the solution you're saying it's like a layer to app that helps which is to to achieve privacy is the way to go versus a true privacy coin if if I got that right

hi my first choice would be for governments just leave everybody alone and disappear and let people use whatever they want but since that's not likely to happen I think at this point it would be really hard for governments to ban bit coin and the coin based coins like bitcoin Kasher in these other ones and if you can build really strong privacy on top of that then it makes it extra hard for government to ban those writings like bit coin used to have a fair number of privacy tools on top of it but it kind of became real expensive and the fees became Heidi users or like things like without the wall it different calling joint things are back on but if the fees are super high use of people are gonna want to use it worse bitcoin cash you still the sorts of things in fact any but if you look at the social media campaign like everybody out there the view bitcoin cash some fake knock off of bitcoin but they most people probably don't realize bitcoin cash was razor close to being called big coin and keeping the BTC ticker symbol and the thing that's called BTC and bitcoin today would have some different name and some different ticker symbol and if that did happen in the Clinton continue just working smoothly with super fast cheap reliable transactions it wouldn't be seventeen thousand dollars today they will be seventy thousand or a hundred and seventeen thousand or maybe even seven hundred thousand dollars today right like the the adoption would have come to a screeching halt like it did where everybody jump ship to you know the exterior projects for bitcoin cash projects for all these other projects out there in the world people abandon bitcoin because it became unusable because of that block size limit again with my conspiracy theory had on I think was an intentional effort by governments to trick people into thinking that the one megabyte block size limit was a good thing for bitcoin when the reality is is that it the lady doctor cryptocurrency by around the world but you know what number of years maybe even a decade plus it's a real shame that people were fooled into doing that but it's real shame the people are fooled into thinking that that the military draft isn't kidnapping slavery and the government is organized violence without people's permission like but brainwashing works and and a lot of people don't realize that there's a huge amount of censorship that went on in the bitcoin community in order to achieve that that was probably one of the biggest I person I think censorship works wow does that ever work I didn't fully appreciate just how effective censorship is and that's why governments are you're trying to shed jewel Amazon Jim Edward Snowden that's why governments love to send people to they call the public schools but if you think about what they really are there mandatory youth propaganda camps where people for the first you know eighteen years their lives are fed the government line about what everything supposed to be in there got a by the time they're eighteen if you're you know children tie like society would fall apart without government we have to have to draft me after taxes for this not who would build roads that's right you already how you're already set in your way of thinking and it's really really hard to break out from that and that's what happened with the cryptocurrency ecosystem the U. censorship to purchase specific narrative and then everybody that came to be called after that only heard that predominant narratives

and then

that became the prevailing view and that's what everybody believes that all the one megabyte blocksize limit was great for bit coin B. caches knock off scam and like that's what people believe and really disappointed with watch that happen right before my eyes

so I want to go deeper in there because there's a lot of new people in the crypto market haven't heard this story and don't know the details they don't know much about the fork and what took place in twenty seventeen and I want it but you talk about what was the genesis of the fork or the idea of that in N. to split off and I know it's based on the vision that's a Toshiba motor had and and trying to achieve that vision but what happened why did why did why was there a split and I know you mention like your conspiracy right but what what was the fundamental split their well of people saying no we don't want to go this direction any other saying and and you know you have your ad saying no it has to be this way because it functions better it would be a cheese division of Saputo she talk about

yeah they were they were kind of two two main making broad generalizations chairman two main ideological camps here one camp was that everybody should run a full node themselves and have the entire blockchain invalidate you know every transaction happening on the bitcoin blockchain and it doesn't matter if the if the overall throughput it's not that big enough not that many people are able to use bitcoin easily the other camp which I felt it too is that like it's the end the first camp they just seem to care about the the total percentage of bitcoin users that were running a full node so if you have a hundred bitcoin users around the world and a hundred percent of them you know a hundred of them are using up a full note they're really happy with that the yep you'll full decentralization we're my point of view is I want half a billion people or eight billion people using bitcoin but maybe you know the blocks are gonna be a lot there because that's a lot of people using a lot more transactions so instead of having

you know

eight billion people running a full node maybe off eight thousand or maybe even eighty thousand right companies and people that are doing different things around the world with that and so you have eight thousand full motor eighty thousand full notes from the world instead of and that's you just a very very small percent of the users will be running a full node but it's still a larger absolute number than if you just have a hundred people using bitcoin a hundred fold out and so that was kind of the disagreement is like what is it the absolute number followed around the world running full loads or is it the percentage of people running full nodes and so if you look at the block size to one megabyte it's much easier to have a much higher number of people running almost drowned world they're using that coin but that limits the number of people are using big when I was arguably the biggest bit quite endless entire world and I stop using bit coin because it stopped being useful for payments I started using things like if you're gonna be calling cash in the narrow and dash and Z. cash a bunch of others out there just looking for something that would continue to work and and increase the block size would allow big going to continue to work and what does hinder the adoption is taking place all over the world and but instead my side of the argument we lost but I think we lost due to the censorship right like I think the other side really play dirty and did all sorts of dirty things in an immoral things but we took the higher ground I think on the big block site but we lost for having taken the high ground to me maybe the world's worse off because of that right we we still have peer to peer electronic cash for the world is easily accessible by everybody

so on that note for the new listeners tell us why you folks to use bitcoin cash versus big point I know you touched on some of it but if you could say you know here's ten things why bitcoin cash is better than big point whether be speed a low transaction fees and so forth I would love for you to give that pitch

yes so I guess first of all the people should use whatever coin is the most useful to them and I think the majority of people out there in the world I I need them all the time I was in the airport two days ago people in the airport record that all bitcoin cash let's talk in the United they know me but I don't know them but I I nice to talk to but I I told well there's a lot you he's on his way to tell because there's lots of places you can spend your bitcoin cash in Tokyo Nissan I never spend like crypto and I think that's the mentality right people just have it and they want to hold that they want the number to go up because they're holding it may help everybody else hold too but my point of view from day one and still today is like take it when you spend something with crypto we buy something with crypto take the dollars or yen or whatever country you normally would use to buy that product and just buy more crypto and that way there's just that much for crypto circulating in the ecosystem but the vast majority of people don't see it that way I remember the week of August wins when they're gonna make an investment in the company that I had already made an investment that I told Hey you should you should make the payment of the court and there is like I don't know two hundred thousand dollars or something like that this is a big one for cheap I don't maybe because of fifteen Bucks or something like that like no no no we don't we want to save article we want specifically and I told him I said well instead of sitting a wire transfer to this guy to make the investment why don't you send a wire transfer to the bit coin exchange and the by the bit coins and then so the decline for that guy and then there's that many you know more dollars worth of bitcoin circulating the big when your system but they didn't see it the same way but that still to this day I think that's the way we make this peer to peer cash the world everybody take the traditional money that the normal used to you know buy bottles of water or whatever else and then use that to buy crypto currency and then spend the cryptocurrency to buy things you want Victor I think I got sidetracked from your original question why should you be the queen cash instead of bitcoin this year's whatever's the most useful to them if if you look at that the hard data so far and if you're what's the most interesting was just the number going up during this been one of the best bets here for for recent title source Minero for that matter and in even BTC has been is outperformed bitcoin cash so far but if you want to make payments and pay for things usually on the internet while bitcoin cash is amazing route the bitcoin dot com wallet center receive some bitcoin cash you'll be amazed there's even a shareable link feature there is literally showing the private key and a deep link you can send us out even if they don't have the wall already you can send it via text message telegram Instagram Facebook anywhere and everywhere you send the link you can send somebody even if they don't have the wall already and that's a feature built right into the bitcoin dot com what did you can't do on bit coin because the fees are high ours because ash the transactions are a fraction of a penny basically instant and work worldwide right now today the big problems it just doesn't have that cool brand awareness and brand recognition that behind us and I think that's a real shame for world

shows Roger I I actually appreciate your open mindedness and your focus on utility versus the price and speculation and all that because we're eventually gonna get there but I I I think a lot of people even myself sometimes struggle because we see that the the marketing the branding behind the big point you know they're now saying it's a store of value versus a payments network and and it's a gold digital gold right but you know what what what do you think it is a hard question what what do you think will hit that tipping point or will be the catalyst SA okay all the speculation stuff is to decide how do we get real world application and and like your point of the people being able to transact and and low fees and you know quick transaction speeds

so I hope people listen to me carefully here but bitcoin BTC with one megabyte blocks will never ever ever be peer to peer electronic cash for the world we either without like the network it doesn't matter because it doesn't have enough transactional throughput capacity even with lightning network to allow people to use this peer to peer cash for the world so the only way bitcoin could ever become money that's used widely around the world is if everybody's using it with the custodian that's holding it for them but then you're right back where we were with the dollars and people you know fractional reserve banking and if funds disappearing and all the problems that we have we're is if user real crypto currency which you can have the private keys yourself and there's enough throughput capacity which people can use transaction a daily basis with now you can have real peer to peer cash the world real pure pure cash for the world is an incredibly important thing for the world because it increases the amount of economic freedom for people worldwide increase the amount of economic freedom increases the rate of economic growth and economic growth compounds year after year after year so even if you just have an additional you know one or two percent of additional worldwide economic growth per year compound that after a couple of decades wow you've raised everybody's standard of living by huge amount compared to what it otherwise would have been an unfortunate we're not getting to see that benefit because everybody's just busy speculating on the you know speculation futures speculators regards the price of the coin that has no chance becoming peer to peer cash for the world and it's really disappointing to to watch that happen

what do you think about you know the ideology of the coin maximalism heroes guys like sailor Max Keiser who are leading the charge here with that and and look there's some lobbying happening in in DC around that as well to make everything else's security and B. quindi or anything that's a commodity you know what your thoughts are on that

you can buy anybody go read Michael sailors Twitter stream for themselves it's a bunch of techno babble without saying it's it's a bunch of no worries the how cool sounding works don't saying is a bit coin using cryptid energy was protected by cyber Hornets or something like


doesn't mean anything it's just like mark often so credit to him for being a good marketer like she's a good worker but like he doesn't say anything right and and the rumor I heard I I don't know if it's true I heard you know second the third hand here I heard that up until a couple years ago he you know he's got big parties at some house yes in Florida and the rumor I heard is that if anybody would even try and talk about bitcoin at these parties up until I don't twenty seventy he taken out of his house and they don't even mention that crap so I think that shows some close mindedness there tonight even allow people to discuss something and now suddenly he wants to become its biggest proponent but if it was a real you know covering vestry would've been you know promoting Ethereum or something else there since he got involved with it at all a lot better holding it there and then the BTC because and the reason why is BTC does not work for payments and that's what a drive that's what drove the the original adoption without any doubt that's what project the entrepreneurs and now it's just a bunch of people that think they can pump the price the asset now go up and sell it to future people for more even though it doesn't have any underlying that utility

see do you think that BTC maximalism ideology will will it seems like it's dying out there's less bitcoin maximalist around it you think over time it will phase out

I'm a little bit sympathetic to bitcoin maximalism in the sense that bitcoin had this giant first mover advantage in which in the early days like there wasn't nobody was using anything other than the queen it was big point and that was it but that was you know two thousand eleven twelve thirteen you know fourteen up until around that point and they squandered their entire first mover advantage right because I had ninety something high ninety something percent market share in the world of crypto currencies and because they allowed the blocks become for the user experience to come back now what's the market share of the costs to market thirty thirty five percent thirty percent somewhere in there my what a missed opportunity and so like I think the only people that are the climax was today at the close minded people that are you know sticking your head in the sand and refusing to accept reality worse I I think I was ahead of the curve finding that coin and tell people Hey this is amazing I was ahead of the curve sound the alarm bell ahead because all the runners run track here if you look at the block size you can limit its usefulness in commerce if you do that you're destroying its entire first mover advantage in the reason I fought so hard and so loudly about that Rick to reasons I wanted the additional economic freedom for the world but two I was the owner of the coin dot com in a giant pile bitcoin I wanted this to succeed in the company for the world's worst these are the people that barely had to be constructed gather we're out there you know make the other you know videos complaining about all we need to look at the block size and this and that like a I had more skin in the game to just about anybody there


I want to ask you but B. S. V. and Craig Wright calling themselves the toshi what are your thoughts on that I think he's crazy but you know that's my opinion

so Craig has sued me I don't know four five times now he's lost you know three or four there's times now they're still one lawsuit pending I think Craig is a really really compelling con man shot it's called a lot of other really smart people but luckily he did for me for forever and on that point his business partner Calvin error exists you know gambling billionaire Canadian guy has and he wants to pretend that it's a news website but it's really just a propaganda website called queen geek dot com but if you think about what that website actually is is probably the first time in history anybody has literally spent millions of dollars of their own money promoting to the world the fact they've been conned by a con man right so Calvin Harris promoting on calling you that he's been conned by track right these before the spending its own money to promote the world he's been conned by a court right so that that's how I see it today but I'm sympathetic because I was full at one point like Craig is a very convincing combat I hope he doesn't see me again for this but if she does all all deal with it again so but actually lost everything one of those lawsuits against me had to pay hundreds of thousands of British pounds in that budget dollars as well recoup legal fees for it and he's just wasting factual I'm really sad about the person that's funny all lawsuits are in an organized manner it's not Craig is Calvin Ayre insight which both of them would just go move on in life and work on something productive it really sad she can wasting so much time and money and energy in Africa all that sort of thing

sure so when talking about bitcoin cash and what's on the roadmap I a source and news that it could become legal tender in same kids in twenty twenty three there is also some adoption via different apps can you tell us a bit about that you know what are you working on it what what what's on the roadmap

yeah there there's a lot of P. everyone's capital Salvador India deliberate conduct happens however will that was pushed from the top down where everybody's using a custodial wallet we don't even know if they actually have the big points or not I just think it's grassroots from the bottom up natural adoption of bitcoin cash for people Bryant primarily using the bitcoin dot com wallet in this big win cash for extract which were in every one of those instances the users have the private keys themselves and it just naturally happened where now it's not a stretch to say that more merchants than not accept bitcoin cash into the country of St Kitts more than fifty percent of the cut margins in the business grocery stores gas stations hotels like taxi drivers anybody pretty much anybody anybody in the country will be aware of it and most people are at I've already used or are currently using it at this point and it's really amazing and the prime minister of St Kitts just a couple weeks ago announced that they intend to acknowledge it recognize it as legal tender in the country by March of this coming year right that's ninety something days away now and that's really really soon here so I think that's a pretty big deal because it's not the cool point it's in the media with the higher market cap this orange color it hasn't got nearly as much attention the fact but the fact that matters is the people are using and if you go to head over to mapped up eight point dot com you'll see there's an amazing amount of adoption not just in St Kitts but in neighboring Antigua and St Martin just across quite a few places around the world it's amazing if you ask the various payment processors which cryptocurrency works the best for payments not necessarily with the ones being used the most but the one that works the best the Tigers bitcoin cash bitcoin cash works best but it doesn't have the cool name a bit coin behind it and that the BTC ticker symbol and so many people across the world they're just flew by I've heard a bit coin name I haven't heard of bitcoin cash I recognize the orange going what's this green tank and they don't look at the underlying characteristics bitcoin cash is the big coin from two thousand nine until like two thousand fifteen and the thing that's called big coin today with the ticker symbol BTC is some brand new project it's trying to be a settlement layer for the lightning network this still doesn't work I could never on board the entire world anyhow because there's not enough block space to do that at the end berry basket I'm working on the one person in the world and that's not enough to become the world's so yeah look look at the the fundamental characteristics not just the the name

I don't know if you can talk about this or share any data or information is because me yarder plans to go to other countries you know when they be in Europe or in Asia or even across Africa to push the adoption of bitcoin cash and make it legal tender

there's lots of people doing that did this stuff like everybody thinks that everything happened in St Kitts was because of me I played a very very small role that I had almost nothing to do with it the vast majority of it was this guy named Sonny got honey who owns a bunch to liquor stores there and he's importing exporting liquor and apparently he had like some you know lawsuits with liquor companies before as to which countries you're allowed to import export to a like he saw the benefit of these international payments that you can make without permission not having a Big Bang and he just went crazy spreading the quote to cash to every single one of those customers all these vendors and now he's doing his entire payroll first y'all's locations employees in the contest and he's the one who really spread between cast out just crossing kids for a couple of other islands in the area there as well and so it just takes one person to the right connections in the right motivation to make that sort of thing happening and anybody can do it which really check out the bitcoin cash strapped in like thirty seconds in the physical store could be accepting bitcoin cash payments with no KYC no terms of service nobody can block you know we can turn it off they can't you know to stop your account if you donated money to Canadian truckers recently like there's none of that just works and works for everybody in the entire world and even if they can get out of the app store there's a web version as well as US stock cash and like nobody can stop that like it's really a powerful tool for economic freedom around the world and the queen doesn't have those things anymore you have to use a custodian for just about everything because I related if using a story and you've missed out on most of the benefits and you know gain in enjoy your fun time with that whatever the next at F. T. X. happens to be when you're using a custodian like don't use custodians hold your money what else

yeah that's great advice and I know we'll we'll talk about a little bit more about that later would have T. acts but I need to circle back and and talk to you about your crypto journey and then getting into investing in crypto companies because you were like a seed investor in early days and like ripple cracking and so forth Z. cash as well can you tell us about that you know specifically ripple and some of the other big companies

yeah I know a lot of people's sadly confused myself as being sort of a quick cash matchless but no I look I'm a peer to peer electronic cash were or even any tool that enables more economic freedom around the world Max because that's what I want more of it's like I would literally was the second person ever involved ripple this guy named Jed McCaleb came up with the idea and reached out to me says Hey Roger I see you're busy in the bitcoin space trying to promote this is money for the world I have an idea on how to do bitcoin that doesn't require mining so use less electricity are you interested in supporting that said sure let's let's give it a try and select I you know put up the seed money to start replies were the second person ever involved it was even called ripple back in the name of the coin because we didn't have an insult new point and that's what the folder on my computer for all the documents look associated that was literally call you calling for years until I finally you know updated that the name of the folder there but but all all sorts of things that are out there as well anything that works crack in a lot of people today know blockchain dot com


blockchain dot com used to be called blockchain dot info I was literally the second person ever involved there there is the original founder who just graduated from high school and I reached out to him and I said Hey I like this pick one thing I like what you're doing you need some money yeah I should probably get a real servers running on right now I'm running on a mac mini in my mom's bedroom at home yeah I said okay well I hope you get some money for real server if that data center for this and so I just threw that in the second person ever involved blockchain dot com and that and you know put the seed money for BitPay and and a bunch of these other businesses out there because I want cash for the world that enables more economic freedom for the world I don't care what the name of the coin is what color is but I want to squeeze these possible for as many people as we possibly can I want to help build the tools to enable that

how many crypto companies you having your portfolio today

I had accounted but probably I don't know how many there were still in existence but the total number of dustbins is probably over a hundred at this point

wow and and Roger if you don't mind me asking you know the the fun at the funds for all these investments come from your bitcoin holdings like you know being an early adopter of Invicta but investor a big one as well

some of the definitely came from that but some of it came from you know money I earned in the bitcoin feel by Randy Quinn this is and then a lot of it like when I first got involved in the crime I was the only person that had you know any money already because I had my previous business member dealers and so before because I never even been invented I was already a multi millionaire inside the money from that to start sprinkling in all these different declined businesses and then when the price of bitcoin went up you know I I crossed the line from you know multi millionaire to billionaire club but that was that was later right but you even having it when I first got involved in the client did did most established business that was accepting payments in bitcoin was selling homemade socks made from alpaca war there's nothing wrong with that that's not like a very big business or anything worse you know my business already had not more millions of dollars in sales per year I mean we're not there last ditch the world that we're not accepting the coins and I put up the world's first a Billboard on the side of the boards expressway in Silicon Valley saying we accept bitcoin for payments and advertise the computer parts were selling and that got worldwide media attention from your newspapers as far away as Germany will party hard Billboard everybody was because you accept it call it like they were shocked and like nobody paid us with it but boy did it work for the market in front and you know it still comes down to the right place to the Billboard like

so what do you feel this is a hard one but what do you feel has been your best investment to date and what was your worst

there's plenty about once I you win some you lose some I think the worst investment I made is a I didn't let other people hold my colleagues just for convenience of storage but I've linked cryptocurrency to other people to try and earn interest and I had other people default on their repayments of that interest since that's probably my biggest mistake or worst investments trying to earn interest on that and I feel bad I can't remember the guy's name so I can give you credit but there's another youtuber guys like at the Asian guy in Australia making YouTube videos we pointed out if you have if you look to investor country what websites offering twenty percent and the other websites offer two percent if you're going to invest it all take the two percent don't pick the twenty percent because the twenty percent means there's way more risk with the two percent means there's a lot less risk and so I thought that was actually pretty darn good device so if you see real high rates of return is proud because there's real higher rates of risk involved such I thought that was real good advice that I feel bad I can't remember the guy's name right give his you tube channel credit

and I'm assuming your best investment baby would be big point

no prob probably the crack in the or blockchain dot com or maybe even yes it makes with the other ones out there as well maybe ripple hi we'll see what happens when some of these companies are just what one investment I regret not having made and and so Brian Armstrong the founder of CEO of Coinbase he I literally begged me like the video please Roger investors please please please please and this is before they've gotten you know hardly any outside investment at all so I probably could invested in them and Anil couple million dollar valuation and I kept telling him no people need to hold their own coins themselves I want people to have their private keys themselves I I'm not trying to build another bank ins like I only invested in businesses of which the users would have the private keys themselves at that point maybe was blockchain dot info later complexion a comment in hindsight I should just invested in both right now with my blockchain dot com investment is done fantastic but what an opportunity I I should've invested involves that was maybe one of my biggest missed opportunities and so Brian I should listen to you I'm sorry for that congratulations on your wonderful success and thank you for helping spread the sap your cash to world

sure hi the question I have for you and and this is that it gets into the weeds out of a window if you you recognize the name because you invest in so many companies but a friend in the quick initially wanted me to ask you why did you invest in it X. X. network I also know ripple's Chris Larsen is also invested in that it is that ring a bell

I invested quite a bit of money in that so

David Chong


one of the deepest histories the world trying to make sure that your cash for us for the world

he hasn't

yet but maybe you know maybe this this time will be the the one that does the trick inside I'm cautiously optimistic and hopeful for for that one as well it's been it's been slow moving I'd I'd like to see things go faster but I'm not that the engineer building the system here so I can only I watch from the sidelines

sure if you don't mind me asking and I'm just so curious because you know you have amazing success you're doing so many investments you have a team or are you kind of like a one man show you know do you have a team of folks helping you with all these things

I have a whole family office that server company group of people that doubt thanks

got it got it okay let's talk about F. T. acts and what's happening in the market now I want to get like your raw thoughts and emotions and so forth on this I'm pissed off about it it's a mess and and there's a lot of congressional hearings happening there's a lot of people ingrates and making freezing should be in jail and so forth you know what your thoughts on this whole debacle

yeah so I guess I need to preface it by saying to be honest I didn't follow it super closely so maybe I I don't have some of the deepest details but that the thing that just kind of seems the most ironic to me is that this guy's ham bacon freed was basically the biggest loudmouth calling for more government regulation more government control of all the crypto businesses yeah he was the guy that failed to regulate his own business worse than just about anybody in the history of crypto net worth most of the other CEOs at the strip of businesses are saying Hey we don't need government regulation just leave us alone I did she can regulate itself for the most part so I I find it very ironic the guys going to the most government regulation failed the worst to regulate at his own business there and then the office somebody made me maybe I have it right here but Sam bacon free it is not in jail yet and died there who who they already put together some other crypto guy

yeah the tornado catch guy is in jail the sand they can freeze and actually the the thing I pulled up here there's another N. F. T. artist that made he made four thousand two hundred fifty three he he's been charged with money laundering and a I have a screen shot here and then in the very next post on reddit the different subreddit just the Pentagon admits he can't account for two trillion dollars again right so some guy earns a bunch of money they charged with money laundering the the Pentagon loses two trillion with a T. dollars hi again right okay

so I I saw them even in there also highlighting that if you do anything over six hundred Bucks the IRS needs to know are you gonna be in trouble

luckily I'm not an American living in America

yes No

I feel bad for all the Americans that living in America but if you if you ever you know if he wants the government to their U. S. citizenship or just wanna have a backup plan just in case a good visit crypto up passports for crypto dot com or crypto for passports dot com I think I think apple there but it's a friend of mine training that you can not get citizenship you can pay for the whole thing in crypto and I think it's a really hard to have a backup plan in terms of citizenship because you never know when when your country is going to go crazy and it's nice to have a backup plan to be able to go somewhere else

search around you you know you you have a boy you seen web one point no you seen web two point oh and what would be considered web three point oh now and this situation I think I don't know if it's bigger amount **** or or yeah maybe it is just because of the media gets bigger


do you think this sets the crypto market back maybe a couple years or things like that


I need to double edged sword like yachts it's horrible but everybody lost a bunch of a bunch of money and then you know crash the whole market but now the entire world is focused on cryptocurrency even more than before people are even more aware that like this is a real thing with real amounts of money in real things happening and so that just would probably drive you mark option more more attention more things happening to it but I think well docks percentage wise of the existing ecosystem is probably a bigger bigger deal than F. T. expert collapse the number of dollars FTX is probably a bigger deal I'm sure bush drew more attention to the ecosystem itself so I don't just keep building up their building useful tools for people to use that people can use

so what one of the challenges here in the United States is crypto regulations and getting proper crypto regulations because we don't want draconian regulations that stifles innovation you have the SEC trying to put all all coins into the securities baskets big win for the most part is that even the CFTC chair said it this morning is a commodity ripple is being sued by the SEC over XRP what are your thoughts on that and and what do you see as being the outcome in that lawsuit

I think the SEC should be voluntarily funded ways right now there's four people are forced to pay for the SEC Reid Ribble pays taxes that then go to the SEC for ripple to harass them I'm a surfer that's easy to harass ripple that's crazy it's like another example that a lot of people aren't aware of so before I was involved in cryptocurrency I was selling networking equipment Cisco Systems was the brand of that record that I sold the most up in the NSA would literally intercept Cisco boxes like Cisco routers and switches and then in started installed or spy ware on them and then finish shipping them and deliver them to the people so that they could spy on the telecom carriers that are using the Cisco equipment and NSA was doing that with money that Cisco was paying in taxes so Cisco's making a product that people all over the world want paying billions of dollars in taxes and then the US government then takes those taxes give that money to the NSA then use that to make it so that companies literally they would rent secret like locations with different shipping addresses for the real business to order Cisco gear to have shipped to like the fake address so that the NSA would know that is actually to be used you know eighteen to your cocktail or somewhere else so the NSA wouldn't intercepted your install their spy ware on it like that's how crazy the world is like these companies are forced to pay for the persecution or the destruction of their own business and that's exactly what's going on with the SEC I think a company like Consumer Reports which is funded voluntarily could do a much better job of warning people against you know FTX another you know things that are about to blow up and how problems and I think you know businesses in the market to provide the consumer reviews to help protect consumers far better than the SEC can do that sort of thing so I would like to see the SEC voluntarily funded and turned into a private organization that interacts with other people on a voluntary basis rather than using tax dollars to threaten people with violence right if people don't obey them thus in men with guns to shut down the business I think that's not the way the world works

have a question for you do you think ripple's gonna win this

yeah I think ripple with but if I can add that the win at the at the at the expense of you your baby tens of millions of dollars maybe a hundred million dollar plus spent on this that's all money that they could be used to pay you know software engineers to build better tools to build a report better user interfaces you're better Walter or better you know user integrations with all these different things so that's you know maybe maybe a hundred million dollars of fees that went to not make the world a better place in the world is that much less wealthy than it otherwise would have been the world's poor be good otherwise would have been your people have to be more babies die at childbirth like the big connects with love to make fun of me for saying that but if you look at the countries with the highest rate of you know GDP more babies survive childbirth rights if you want more babies to survive childbirth you want more economic freedom leads to more economic growth and more economic growth leads to more be destroyed childbirth the way to do that is not having to spend hundreds of millions of dollars fighting the S. E. C. with stupid lawsuits and us I really would like to see a lot of that sort of thing come to come to an end

and your point you know like block fi had to pay the SEC a hundred million dollars I think they paid seventy million of that now they're in a hole they've been trying to get bail outs and help and part of that was from F. T. X. but after that collapse that's off the table so that's just an example of what you're talking about thirty companies have to hand over a ton of cash and you can survive

yeah and it's it's it's not and those are just some big public examples but is every single business in every person all over the world all the time and like a lot of people say oh you know governments the price we need for civilization but if you stop and take a step back and think about it private businesses can survive without government government cannot survive without the private businesses and so that means that the government is the parasite upon the private businesses because private businesses can survive without the parasite the parasite cannot survive without the host and the host as you and I and everybody else in private industry

Roger you you've seen so many things you have you been in the crypto market so early are you still excited about this technology and our question what where do you see it the crypto market in five years

the the two things I'm the most excited about arch cryptocurrency enabled peer to peer electronic cash the world which increases the rate of economic growth for the world there within


artificial intelligence wow what a big well this is and I'm surprised like I keep one of the most recent conversation topics I keep talking other people about I'm surprised they haven't heard it yet it's like a three or four months ago and engineered Google quick Google and like violated his NDA was cool talk about this chat off they have a Google that he's claiming he thinks is like you know conscious


where and at first I was skeptical I thought okay like let's see it but if you read the chat logs with that thing that makes a really compelling case like I don't know if it's you know conscious or not but like it made a darn compelling case it even to the point like I know I'm human you know I'm I record this chatbot I forget what the points were down but it had like these philosophical viewpoints that like really baby stuff too wow I I never thought of it that way before and so like if it's not there if it's not conscious yeah it's it's not that far away like it was coming really really close there I think you are most common was like yeah well can drive a car so what's your point of view of theirs well but it's getting close and that's going to change everything and so one example of that is like you know most humans at least put some time and effort into it they can learn calculus right they can figure out at but if you give a dog brain a thousand years a dog's brain simply is not capable of understanding calculus even if you get a thousand years to study out this there's problems and concepts ideas out there in the world even if we get the human brain a thousand years our brains just not capable of understanding that we have these new A. I. super brains they're gonna be able to use not just understand recognize problems that we can't even be aware of this humans they're gonna be able to solve it it's really off to the races like I guess early I told my my my philosophy is like a voluntary aspect actually maybe my my real central core philosophy is in extra PM an extra somebody who wants to increase the amount of intelligence in the universe I think the more intelligence there is out there in the universe the more exciting wonderful things that can happen and I'm just excited and grateful to be a part of that journey and along for the ride so I think a I used to really exciting next step to increase the amount of intelligence universe doing all sorts of amazing things to my cart brain isn't really able to understand at this point

will it will it make crypto better or or could be a threat to the Greco

I know it's gonna make it better without any doubt

if you think about it like

any I. program can't open a PayPal account to can't get a visa card you can't open a bank account it's going to be using cryptocurrency fixed payments because everybody needs to use one including non human entities on the internet

got it yeah Sir Roger anywhere up on time but I got some wrap up questions for you here first rapid fire favorite food

shop the shop I think or maybe some good solid people know that so one is a Japanese like stop what the other is a Korean barbecue pork barbecue with kimchi so

I love Korean barbecue favorite musician or band

I'm kind of weird that way I don't really listen to music

or no music at all

may maybe ordered all flags for people they're old enough to remember those guys together if I leave this to the music I like electronic music

favorite movie

ex machina I don't know background right but that is our chief eve

highlights exactly we're just offering a I'd consciousness and so I can help

that's what makes I like science fiction movies that are believe with the can actually could potentially happen in like that that's a real head spinning movie if you haven't seen it even though it's a partial block that one it's awesome

I love it yeah I I watch it I've I've watched it maybe like five times it's it's one of those like sci fi movies I'm into sci fi's all watch Blade Runner X. Makino and all that every book

for science fiction books probably like the the who acted in a couple days the two thousand one two thousand eleven Mar two thousand sixty three I forget there are three and three three to two thousand one series right there for books that series were all fantastic in another one that was really excellent I think was a


Friday is it I think Robert Highlander this destroyed because there's a colony of humans on the moon and the government servers are trying to boss around the humans on the moon the humans on the motorcycle okay you're not the boss of the city where you stay on the road to do your stuff on the moon will do our stuff and earth government you're saying no you better continue to obey us so with the people on the moon it is the used to the earth's gravity against the by dropping remove rocks as a weapon down under the earth to get the governments of the earth to leave them alone on the moon said Friday I think it was the name that was Friday or somebody somebody else will know the name of that book but that was another really fun book that I enjoyed a lot and then that I'm sure there's a favorite books and there was one other question

well yeah what when you're not doing anything crypto related would be doing for fun as a hobby

a Brazilian jujitsu fight my other hobby outside of a crypto and books and nerdy stuff

I said any any of these are big one Max let's try to mess with the you can handle yourself sounds like

I feel pretty confident in any grappling match with somebody that's not a full time grappling professional

and finally I if you could create your own metaverse what would the team be

yeah I don't think I really have an answer I feel like there's so much stuff happening in the world that we're in right now that I don't feel the real compelling need for for metaverse in my own life there's so much happening already that's something that's not actually it's exciting for me

yeah Roger pleasure chatting with you man thank you so much for joining me

thank you to